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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

OT - McDonald's Hot Coffee Quiz

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KEG

02-13-2004 16:13:25




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Everyone has "heard" of the McDonald's case and results, and it has become synonomous with bad lawyers. But let's see what really happened
as compared to what everyone thinks happened.

(The answers will be posted later.)

1. when Stella Liebeck was burned, she was in the:
A driver's seat
B passenger seat
C rear seat

2. when the coffee spilled, the car was:
A moving
B parked
C on the highway

3. the cup:
A was being handed to her and was dropped
B in her crotch
C was between her knees

4. when the coffee spilled, Stella was:
A squeezing her legs together while reaching for her egg mcmuffin
B removing the lid to add cream and sugar
C eating her breakfast

5. Stella received burns to her:
A inner thighs
B perineum
C buttocks
D genitalia
E all the above

6. these burns were:
A 1st degree
B 2nd degree
C 3rd degree
D all the above

7. Stella required:
A 2 days in the hospital
B 5 days in the hospital
C 8 days in the hospital and skin grafting surgery

8. (hint: your coffee at home comes out at about 135 to 140 degrees)
McDonald's quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforced a requirement that its coffee be served between:
A 140 to 150 degrees
B 150 to 170 degrees
C 180 to 190 degrees

9. (true or false)
McDonald's quality assurance manager testified that the company knew that coffee served at the required temperature was not fit for consumption
because it would burn the mouth and throat

10. according to the experts, coffee served at the temperature as required by McDonald's will cause full thickness burns to human skin in:
A 2 to 7 seconds
B 10 to 20 seconds
C 30 to 60 seconds

11. prior to Stella's burns, McDonald's had received *more* than this number
of coffee burn claims:
A 100
B 300
C 700

12. prior to filing her lawsuit, McDonald�s *rejected* Stella�s offer to settle all her claims, medical bills, injury and scarring, for the total
amount of:
A $20,000
B $100,000
C $500,000

13. the jury evaluated Stella's *total* claim for compensatory damages for all of her medical bills, injuries, and scarring at:
A $200,000
B $500,000
C $2,000,000

14. based on the evidence and testimony, the jury also awarded punitive damages against McDonald's in the amount of:
A $2,700,000
B $4,300,000
C $10,000,000
�which was later *reduced* by the court at McDonald�s request to:
D $480,000
E $1,500,000
F $5,000,000


15. as her percentage share of her own responsibility or fault for contributing to her own injury, the jury assessed fault against Stella in
the amount of:
A 0% her fault, 100% McDonald�s fault
B 10% her fault, 90% McDonald�s fault
C 20% her fault, 80% McDonald�s fault


Give it some thought and write down what you think is the correct response. The answers will be posted shortly.

KEG

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KEG - Follow-up

02-16-2004 06:55:53




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 Re: OT - McDonald's Hot Coffee Quiz in reply to KEG, 02-13-2004 16:13:25  
First, all of the information is correct. If not, show me where there is a mistake.

Second, while there may be frivolous lawsuits around, most are stopped before they get to court. A lot of what you read is in the filing, not the conclusion of a case. If it is the conclusion of a case (after all appeals are completed) you should then read the entire court opinion to understand why the decision resulted the way it did (even better, see the transcript for the evidence that swayed the judge or jury). Do not base your understanding on newspaper stories that just want to make headlines.

Third, McDonalds knew the coffee was too hot, as they admitted. So will you complain the next time you make a mistake and accidently spill your hot cup of coffee that it wasn't hot enough to burn you? After all, my coffee at home is much lesshot and tastes just fine. It is because of such lawsuits that your hand drill shields you from electric shock, your ladder doesn't break unexpectedly, and on and on.

I agree that we appear to have gone a little overboard sometimes, but can you say the picture as a whole is worse because of more care and attention by industry toward protecting us when they generally have the advantage of knowing how their product can be made to prevent obvious injuries?

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Wayne

02-13-2004 21:27:58




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 Re: OT - McDonald's Hot Coffee Quiz in reply to KEG, 02-13-2004 16:13:25  
Hey KEG, where did you get all this information? From what I heard most of it is true, but not all of it. I was talking to a lawyer recently and this case came up in conversation. He said that the main reason the case was brought was that McDonalds served their coffee at a temp higher than the "Industry standard", and that was why the coffee was hot enough to actually burn her like it did. I won't dispute that, but McDonalds has been serving the same coffee for what... 50 or 60 years now....surely long enough to be one of the industry leaders/standard setters. Now why exactly did she get burned? What the lawyer told me was that she was in fact the passanger and her son was driving. When he gunned the car away from the window she was holding the cup between her legs and his sudden start with the car caused her to spill it. The spill was due to his careless driving and her carelessness in putting the cup between her legs, not McDonalds. I imagine at her age she had been to McDonalds MANY MANY times in her life and knew the coffee was hot and would burn her, so why was she holding it the way she was...and I say this regardless of what caused it to spill, her actions or her sons. Personally I don't even hold a cup of cold drink between my legs because it's too easy to crush the cup and wet your crotch, so why would somebody be so stupid as to put an extreemely hot cup down there????? My Mom is a huge coffee drinker and has drank many cups of coffee from McDonalds and other places over the years. I never once remember seeing her put a cup of coffee between her legs, at home or in the car. It was always in a cup holder, and/or was immediately transfered into an insulated "sip" cup, especially when she was in the car. Never once have I seen her burned by her coffee, either at home or in a restaurant of any type. What it all comes down to is that the lawsuit was filed by a greedy lawyer who was wanting to make some money off of a big company and saw McDonalds as a huge cash cow for them to pursue. The case becomes all about what the company charged may or may not have done wrong, and less and less about the person filing the lawsuit did wrong, or carelessly, that actually caused their injury. It's a whole lot easier to find fault with a huge corporation that with a little old lady who everybody is gonna take pitty on. If it had been a 20 yr old man being careless and spilling it on himself you can bet he wouldn't have had a chance, he was just young and therefore careless. So what if McDonalds served HOT coffee, 99.99999 % of the people in the world want it that way and have enough sense to not be careless and do anything with it that has even the remote possibility of burning their crotch. So tell me what right does that give the stupid, clumsy, careless, .00000 01% to sue when they injure themselves with something the other 99.99999 have no problem handling???? I'm sure if this same old woman went to a steak house and cut herself on a sharp steak knife they would have found some way to sue that restaurant because their steak knives were 25% sharper than the competetors were. It all sounds kind of stupid when you put it in that perspective doesn't it?? Still the basic case is the same, this place does something different from the others which makes their establishment more hazardous...so why not sue them because of it????? Is there no end to the stupid lawsuits? Lawyers suing Mfgs because of the way their products are used, because somebody was careless with a product, etc etc etc. I don't care who many regulations are put out there by OSHA, or whatever regulatory outfit you want to put here, in the end YOU CAN'T PROTECT PEOPLE FROM THEMSELVES..... .and as long as industry has to pay for these peoples carelessness then prices are gonna keep going up and up and up in order for the mfgs to protect themselves from frivilious crap like this lawsuit..... .... IN THE END WE ALL LOSE..... Just my .02

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Greywolf

02-14-2004 05:06:10




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 Re: Re: OT - McDonald's Hot Coffee Quiz in reply to Wayne, 02-13-2004 21:27:58  
Very Very true on never being able to protect the public from themselves.

These are a few "warning labels" on some consumer procducts used around the house. Sad fact that I'm sure they are there because of a lawsuit that already happened.


On a Sears hairdryer: Do not use while sleeping. (dang it...and that's the only time I have to work on my hair).

On a bag of Fritos: You could be a winner! No purchase necessary. Details inside. (the shoplifter special)?


On a bar of Dial soap: "Directions: Use like regular soap." (and that would be how???....)


On Marks & Spencer Bread Pudding: "Product will be hot after heating." (...and you thought????...)


On packaging for a Rowenta iron: "Do not iron clothes on body." (but wouldn't this save me more time)?


On Boot's Children Cough Medicine: "Do not drive a car or operate machinery after taking this medication."

On Nytol Sleep Aid: "Warning: May cause drowsiness." (and...I'm taking this because???....)


On most brands of Christmas lights: "For indoor or outdoor use only." (as opposed to...what)?


On a Japanese food processor: "Not to be used for the other use." (now, somebody out there, help me on this. I'm a bit curious.)


On Sainsbury's peanuts: "Warning: contains nuts." (talk about a news flash)


On an American Airlines packet of nuts: "Instructions: Open packet, eat nuts" (Step 3: maybe, uh...fly Delta?)


On a child's superman costume: "Wearing of this garment does not enable you to fly." (I don't blame the company. I blame the parents for this one.)

Found on the back of the windshield cover (you know, those things to block out the sun to try and keep your car from getting so hot) "Remove from windshield before driving car".

Tag on a hair dryer actually says "Do not use while showering".

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Larry NE IL

02-15-2004 19:23:58




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 Re: Re: Re: OT - McDonald's Hot Coffee Quiz in reply to Greywolf, 02-14-2004 05:06:10  
Your comment about the iron reminded me of this story; a guy goes to Victorias Secret to buy his wife an expensive nightgown for their 40th anniversery. He orders a sheer one, sees the product with a cost of $300.00, decides it isn't sheer enough. Next one comes out very sheer, Price tag $400.00. Asks if there isn't one thats almost transparent, the clerk brings one out, top of the line $500.00
Brings it home and gives it to his wife of fourty years and suggests she try it on.
She goes to the bedroom, sees the price tag and thinks," I'll just come out naked, the old buzzard will never notice, then take this back and keep the five hundred bucks". And she does, " well honey, how do you like it?"
He says,"for five hundred bucks, you'd think they would have ironed out all the wrinkles"

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AMEN

02-14-2004 03:26:07




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 Re: Re: OT - McDonald's Hot Coffee Quiz in reply to Wayne, 02-13-2004 21:27:58  
Well said, too many lawyers out there raping the USA companies and insurance companies.



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ANSWERS

02-13-2004 19:13:03




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 Re: OT - McDonald's Hot Coffee Quiz in reply to KEG, 02-13-2004 16:13:25  
(correct answers marked by ***)

1. when Stella Liebeck was burned, she was in the:
A driver's seat
***B passenger seat
C rear seat

2. when the coffee spilled, the car was:
A moving
***B parked
C on the highway

3. the cup:
A was being handed to her and was dropped
B in her crotch
***C was between her knees

4. when the coffee spilled, Stella was:
A squeezing her legs together while reaching for her egg mcmuffin
***B removing the lid to add cream and sugar
C eating her breakfast

5. Stella received burns to her:
A inner thighs
B perineum
C buttocks
D genitalia
***E all the above

6. these burns were:
A 1st degree
B 2nd degree
C 3rd degree
***D all the above

7. Stella required:
A 2 days in the hospital
B 5 days in the hospital
***C 8 days in the hospital and skin grafting surgery

8. (hint: your coffee at home comes out at about 135 to 140 degrees)
McDonald's quality assurance manager testified that the company actively
enforced a requirement that its coffee be served between:
A 140 to 150 degrees
B 150 to 170 degrees
***C 180 to 190 degrees

9. (***true or false)
McDonald's quality assurance manager testified that the company knew that
coffee served at the required temperature was not fit for consumption
because it would burn the mouth and throat

10. according to the experts, coffee served at the temperature as required
by McDonald's will cause full thickness burns to human skin in:
***A 2 to 7 seconds
B 10 to 20 seconds
C 30 to 60 seconds

11. prior to Stella's burns, McDonald's had received *more* than this number
of coffee burn claims:
A 100
B 300
***C 700

12. prior to filing her lawsuit, McDonald�s *rejected* Stella�s offer to
settle all her claims, medical bills, injury and scarring, for the total
amount of:
***A $20,000
B $100,000
C $500,000

13. the jury evaluated Stella's *total* claim for compensatory damages for
all of her medical bills, injuries, and scarring at:
***A $200,000
B $500,000
C $2,000,000

14. based on the evidence and testimony, the jury also awarded punitive
damages against McDonald's in the amount of:
***A $2,700,000
B $4,300,000
C $10,000,000
�which was later *reduced* by the court at McDonald�s request to:
***D $480,000
E $1,500,000
F $5,000,000


15. as her percentage share of her own responsibility or fault for
contributing to her own injury, the jury assessed fault against Stella in
the amount of:
A 0% her fault, 100% McDonald�s fault
B 10% her fault, 90% McDonald�s fault
***C 20% her fault, 80% McDonald�s fault

Here�s more surprising truth:

-the punitive damages against McDonald�s equalled only about 2 days of McDonald�s coffee sales; similar to the average person paying a parking
ticket

-based on the 20% assessment of fault against Stella, her total compensatory damage award was reduced from $200,000 to only $160,000

-after appeals, and after the court reduced the punitive award to only 3 times the damage award, or $480,000, for a total of $640,000, the claim was finally settled for a confidential sum believed to be a lesser amount

-And the GOOD news?? Post-verdict investigation revealed that the McDonald�s in the area where Stella was burned were serving coffee at an
average temperature below 160 degrees !!!


Yes, this case has made a positive difference

It�s just too bad hundreds of people have to be senselessly injured, courts and juries tied up for weeks, months, and years, and millions of dollars spent before a big corporation will recognize that personal safety is always
more important than profits!

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jeff

02-16-2004 00:03:38




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 Re: Re: OT - McDonald's Hot Coffee Quiz in reply to ANSWERS, 02-13-2004 19:13:03  
By the way guys, I work in the food equipment repair business. Work at Bally's in Atlantic City. I have almost 20 years of time in the field and "in house". Bunn coffee brewers are set up to give MAX product at best taste. You set them up to put out 193 degree water at the bottom of the filter basket. Hotter and the coffee burns. Oil taste and it gets bitter. Lower temps and the coffee slowly gets weaker with less temp. Try an Expresso machine! Boiling water =212 degrees at 40-120 lbs pressure depending on the type of machine. The storys I could tell you would make the hair on a bald man curl! I know we need lawers and a very good one helped me win a divorse in New Jersey! BUT there are too many whores out there!!!!! Jeff

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James in North Carolina

02-13-2004 20:48:08




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 Re: Re: OT - McDonald's Hot Coffee Quiz in reply to ANSWERS, 02-13-2004 19:13:03  
If personal safety was always more important then profits, every car in America would be built to go a maximum speed of 5 miles an hour, swimming pools companies would make their pools a maximum of 3 inches deep, companies would stop selling most of their household cleaners, and builders would stop building 2 story houses. Plus the government would ban left turns and do away with right turn on red.

McDonalds was wrong in this case, but personal safety doesn't always come before profits. We make a trade off between safety, comfort and convenience.

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Freddie

02-13-2004 20:56:08




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 Re: Re: Re: OT - McDonald's Hot Coffee Quiz in reply to James in North Carolina, 02-13-2004 20:48:08  
I agree that profits have to be a part of the plan, but if we forget personal safety, we would be going a 100 mph in a tin box. Don't forget the Pinto problem.

Anyway, when safety problems are obvious, corporate America doesn't always care. Good thing we have a court system to help the little guy!



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