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pipe welding test?

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cmbb

02-05-2004 14:02:54




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Gentlemen; I have considered taking a pipe welding course with the thought of taking the welding test. Is there any help on the internet with technique of applying the root pass? This will be with stick welder, 5 or 6 " diameter pipe.




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T_Bone

02-06-2004 04:26:37




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 Re: pipe welding test? in reply to cmbb, 02-05-2004 14:02:54  
Hi cmbb,

Depends on who's spec's your testing for AWS or API and the job requirement spec's. Both qualification requirements are close with subtle differences so I will include general information that apply's to both specifications. Although I'm a AWS CWI, I never certified thru API as an inspector and I'm lacking through knowledge of there codes.


Qualification Overview:

The most common test position is the 6G, ie; 6" pipe fixed at 45º +/-5º, with a 60º opening, with either a open root or backing plate, as it qualifies the welder for all positions on both grove and fillet weldments. This also quickly weeds out the "crack of dawn" welders as welder skill is shown at the root pass that is visual inspected after compleation.

After tack up has been completed, a visual inspection is done of the joint prepration, ie; correct root opening, land thickness, tack placement and joint cleaness.

If you pass the visual root test, then your allowed to proceed to complete the test too the cover pass. Once the cover pass is completed then once again a visual test is preformed and there it is decided if you will be allowed on too the inspection stage of destructive testing (ie; cupon bend testing) or nondestructive testing (ie; X-ray, ultrasonic, dye penterant or magnetic particle).


Test Overview Requirements 6G test:

Test pieces shall be cleaned of all forgien material (ie; oil, grease, rust, scale, paint) from 1" of either side of the center line of the weldment. No more than 1/16" of base metal shall be removed during base metal preperation. (Notes:) If allowed by the WPS (Welding Procedure Specification) a 60grit x 1" emery paper wheel (flapper wheel) on a die grinder works well for this task. Watch using a air die grinder that oil does not get on or close too the weld zone. Code does not specifiy what tools are to be supplied other than normal tools that are required in normal field use. I've had great tools supplied during the testing phase (there "if" you ask) but not supplied at the jobsite and then I've been on tests where only a grinder was supplied at the testing stage with very little more available to work with at the job site. Do NOT forget to clean the inside of the plate/pipe or the backing plate collar.

For open root weldments, test pieces shall have a land thickness of 1/8" maximum with a maximum 1/8" root opening. No root opening shall exceed 3/16" in width.
(Notes:) What has worked well for me is a 1/16" land with a 3/32" root opening with using 1/8" 6010 or 7018 electrodes with the correct heat setting of approx. 110amps. 3/32" electrodes will not be allowed for root passes as AWS specifiys a welder requallification is needed for a change in electrode diameter increase of more than 1/32" but not vice versa. Most welder qualification procedures will detail what electrodes are allowed for the root, inner and cover pass welds.

For a root opening with a backing plate, shall a maxmimum land of 1/8" and maximum root opening of 1/8" for 3/8" plate thickness. No root opening shall exceed 3/16" in width. (Notes:) What has worked well for me is a 3/32" land with a 3/32" root opening with using 1/8" 7018 electrodes with the correct heat setting of approx. 125amps. 3/32"electrodes will not be allowed for root passes as AWS specifiys a welder requallification is needed for a change in electrode diameter increase of more than 1/32" but not vice versa.

Test pieces shall be tacked welded at the 3, 6, 9 and 12 o'clock positions with each tack being under 1/2" in total length.

(Notes:) At this time a visual inspection is preformed of the test piece. Minor flaws of the code will be allowed to be fixed during the test by most weld inspectors, however there are inspectors that are on there own "head trip" and will "look" you out (stop the test). If that happens ask to see the inspection supervisor as most of us will give some lee way as we all know how difficult the test enviroment can be. We also are aware of the job market demands of the contractor so we will be (slightly) more lenient at times than at other times. The best way to handle any inspector is to treat them like you want to be treated, don't ask for favors nor expect them but don't kiss up either as this makes most inspectors watch closer. AWS code requires one CWI (Certified Weld Inspector (4yr requirement)) on the jobsite with numerous associate (two year requirement) weld inspectors working under the CWI.

(Notes:) Preclean all tacks and passes very well paying close attention to total slag removal. On the only test I failed (1/3 of the test) was because I failed to clean the slag completely on the root pass and that slag trail went clear thru the weld zone to the cover pass. Looked kinda of neat when it broke on the edge as it gave great detail of the slag entrapment. I was allowed to retest as my root and cover pass looked well.

(Notes:) It is very critical to hold a stable arc length. The more stable arc length the easier the root and other passes will be. Start each pass two to three rod diameters staggered as this allows for any missed minor flaws to be corrected by the next hot pass. To make a smooth transistion between stops and starts, start the rod back about 1/4" from the end of the weld in two quick 360º circles then move into the weld zone.


(Notes:) Open root is best done buy starting two rod diameters back on to a tack or previous weld as this lets the electrode heat stablize before entering or making the "keyhole". It's called a keyhole as thats just what it looks like, a old time lock key hole or tear drop. Hold the rod in the keyhole until the bottom of the keyhole is filled then more forward. Now you can see where correct electrode amps are required with a stable arc length. Too hot and the keyhole size increases and can't be filled. Too cold and you can't form the keyhole or lack of penatration. A straight steady forward bead I found is best under most conditions. Your a little nervous, no problem, just grab ahold of the electrode close to the end where it's hot and you will soon smooth out.

On open root welds you are allowed 1/16" concave and 1/8" convex of the root face front and back when comparred to the base metal. A 1/64" undercut is allowed at the toe of the weld and on both the root and cover pass.
(Note:) It's best too not make a inspector take out a gauge to measure this defect! On root welds using a backing plate I like holding a steady arc length without weaving while paying close attention to the land edges for complete weld metal fill.

(Notes:) Now that the root pass been completed, I usually add approx 15amps to complete the inner pass welds as well as the cover pass. Stagger all stops and starts as this helps prevent cold lap and slag entrapment. Watch the base metal groove edges for a cover pass guide line. I like using 1/2 of electrode diameter overlap on the edge as this makes for a good tie in without undercut. On a test weldment I strongly urge stringer beads for the cover pass as theres less chance for a defect. On the other hand if theres a bunch of experienced pipe welders present then your gonna get laughed at running stringer beads for a cover pass.

The test cupons, if required, are cut out of the 2, 4, 8 and 10 o'clock positions being 1-1/2" finished width. That being said, then on destructive testing, make sure these areas are flawless as possible.

T_Bone

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SHeiserman

02-07-2004 11:00:55




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 Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to T_Bone, 02-06-2004 04:26:37  
Running stringers on a 6G for fill and cover passes has been procedure everywhere I've been.



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T_Bone

02-07-2004 14:45:37




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 Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to SHeiserman, 02-07-2004 11:00:55  
Hi SHeiserman,

A typical pipe welder always runs a weave bead cover and you can take a lead pencil and draw a line down the weld without breaking the lead.

Most pipe welders I've seen would put my welds to shame on stick. I can hold my own with Tig and Mig on pipe.

T_Bone



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SHeiserman

02-07-2004 16:38:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to T_Bone, 02-07-2004 14:45:37  
Hey T-Bone. Guess I don't get out enough, just haven't seen it on horizontal joints. I've always thought stringers were harder to make look good because of all the starts and stops. I don't do much MIG at all, but do TIG fairly often. I definitely prefer stick to the the other two.



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T_Bone

02-07-2004 19:46:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to SHeiserman, 02-07-2004 16:38:26  
Hi SHeiserman,

I see where were not talking apples. I was referring too the 5G where the pipe is fixed horizontal and the weld being layed in bottom center to top center on vertical up welds both sides. Those were the beauties that I was referring too.

I think your talking the 2G position where the pipe is fixed vertical with the weld being layed in horizontial around the pipe. Now there I agree that I've seen very few pipe welders use a weave with the majority laying in stringers.

Yes I agree that weld tie in on starts and stops are difficult to get to lay together in any position.

T_Bone

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SHeiserman

02-07-2004 20:26:31




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to T_Bone, 02-07-2004 19:46:09  
I was hoping that was the case. I was beginning to get an inferiority complex.



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T_Bone

02-07-2004 22:58:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to SHeiserman, 02-07-2004 20:26:31  
Hi SHeiserman,

Any suggestions for cmbb as I'm sure these guys get tired of hearing my one sided preaching.

Guys I don't know it all nor think that I do as I learn something here everyday, it's now if I can remember it :)


Ok joke time:

Asked: How old are you?

Old enough to remember how, I just don't remember when!

T_Bone



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SHeiserman

02-08-2004 06:23:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to T_Bone, 02-07-2004 22:58:37  
I'd say between you and Bill528n, there's not much more to say. Buck was right about practice too. What helped me the most was I picked out who I wanted to teach me, and to this day my welds aren't as good (consistent) as his. I started on an asphalt parking lot in JUly of '95 or '96. He tacked a piece of 2" angle to a V pipe stand(open side down, 12" long), and told me to fill it up with 7018. He ran the first stringer all the way up and said they should look like that. I had a he!! of a time. It's good to read the technical info on here, because I don't get it at work. After reading you and Buck talk about FCAW, I looked into getting a Miller 12 VRS (something like that) for my 251D constant current machine. I didn't know you could run wire off constant current. It's about $2,ooo for the suitcase welder, which I think would be the way to go for me. Just gotta decide. You guys just need to keep talking, and I'll keep reading.

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Buck

02-08-2004 07:15:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe welding t in reply to SHeiserman, 02-08-2004 06:23:11  
Hi S Heiserman, if you are looking at buying a wire feeder that will work with a CC machine? Check out the tool auctions, eBay, and places like that. The LN-22, and LN-25 are almost indestructible. Years ago I was out on the job site on a Saturday. I dropped an LN-22 about 60-feet. That thing shattered, the spool of wire went everywhere. Climbed down cut the wires lose, looked like a rat’s nest, never get it wound back up correctly. I plugged the welding lead back into it, the drives rolls went round and round so I tried it. It worked fine. Now this amazed me for a number of reasons. First that the feeder still worked, second that it fell in the first place. When I started out I was the punk on the job, so I got to drag everybody’s welding leads. One old timer told me, if you ever have to jump out of an airplane don’t take a parachute, take the end of 100-feet of welding lead and you’ll never hit the ground, it will hang up on something!

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SHeiserman

02-08-2004 07:37:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe weldi in reply to Buck, 02-08-2004 07:15:15  
Yeah, I've heard that too. I hate welding lead. We do use a Lincoln suitcase, don't know the model, when we are out of the shop. That is why I like the suitcase machines, they seem awful tough. Biggest problem we have with it is the guy who used it last. I really don't do much wire, so I think that would be the way to go. When will Miller introduce their cordless welders?



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Buck

02-08-2004 07:56:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe w in reply to SHeiserman, 02-08-2004 07:37:40  
That's a new on me! I've been out of it so long, lots of changes. Reading T_Bone's post always brings back memories! I would have to say about 98% of my career, I spent holding a wire feed gun. When you make the big buck$, it seems management wants the biggest bang for their buck!



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SHeiserman

02-08-2004 10:10:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pi in reply to Buck, 02-08-2004 07:56:35  
I was just kidding, but wouldn't cordless welding be nice? There's a brainiac out there somewhere that can figure it out.



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Buck

02-06-2004 04:51:59




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 Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to T_Bone, 02-06-2004 04:26:37  
Hi T_Bone, you forgot to tell him about the sound! You remember when making the root pass weld (open root) it’s all about the sound! Experienced pipe welders can look away when making the root pass! For all intent and purpose, your welding on the inside of the pipe at this point. Correct?



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T_Bone

02-07-2004 15:49:26




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 Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to Buck, 02-06-2004 04:51:59  
Hi Buck,

Well now you've got me as I don't remember any special sound. Most of my certification tests were 6G pipe as I described but that was only a lead into 6" SS Tig tests.

About the only commerical piping I did was Tig root with a 7018 cap on low pressure steam piping 4" and less. Everything else was SS thin wall or sch10 piping with Tig at 100%.

I was sheetmetal worker by trade so heavy wall piping was not our primary area.

T_Bone

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SHeiserman

02-07-2004 16:26:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to T_Bone, 02-07-2004 15:49:26  
There isn't so much sound on coupons, but if you're getting penetration on a longer length of pipe, it definitely makes noise. That's one way to know if people are burning through.



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Bill 52 8n

02-05-2004 22:37:48




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 Re: pipe welding test? in reply to cmbb, 02-05-2004 14:02:54  
I passed my D1.1 6G AWS pipe certification last may. I attend Pennsylvania College of Technology, and recomend it to anyone that wants to be a welder. I don't think lookin up stuff on the internet will help much (followed by my tips on how to weld lol). The best way to learn is to practice, and in my case have a 30 yr vet (my proff) looking over my shoulder telling me how to correct my mistakes. For the root pass (assuming a 6G test 8" pipe) we made four 3/4 to 1 inch tacks feathered on either end. I put my largest tack on top like Buck said. I ran a 3/32 gap, 1/16 land with 1/8 6010 at 80-90 amps. Fit up is 90% of a weld joint, the better the fitup, the easier to make the weld. You just have to work the keyhole using small circles from the bottom up, if it gets to large don't be afraid to break the arc and turn your heat down and resart, after you feather the edge with a die grinder. An angle grinder with a wire wheel on it is priceless during a test for removing stubborn flux between passes. Best bet is to take a course and have someone help you one on one.

Bill

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Buck

02-06-2004 02:34:16




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 Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to Bill 52 8n, 02-05-2004 22:37:48  
Bill you nailed it! I agree with everything you said. I had been welding for years. Then my company landed a large piping contract. Some of us less familiar with pipe welding were sent back to welding school. In my area you cannot throw a rock with out hitting a welder. There are three large Navy facilities with in fifteen miles of my house. In my opinion the Navy trains some of the best welders on the planet. When I went back to school the teacher was one of the Navy’s top pipe welders at the local submarine base. My father-n-law was his fitter at the time, so naturally he took a liking to me. He spent a lot of extra time holding my hand. Literally! It hit me after my last post, rolling the top tack weld off center form 12 o’clock is a trick for TIG welding tests, see I said it was a long time ago.

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Greg D

02-05-2004 17:22:14




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 Re: pipe welding test? in reply to cmbb, 02-05-2004 14:02:54  
I would second the Lincoln reccomendation. I`m sure there are also a lot of good schools out there, but I would also suggect the Lincoln welding school. I went there a lot of years ago, but didn`t take the pipe course. An excellent school with very good instructors.



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Buck

02-05-2004 14:54:55




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 Re: pipe welding test? in reply to cmbb, 02-05-2004 14:02:54  
Go to lincolnelectric.com they offer books on pipe welding. Practice, practice, practice. In ever pipe test I have taken the inspector can take one look at the root and bust you out, just on the visual!



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cmbb

02-05-2004 16:03:21




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 Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to Buck, 02-05-2004 14:54:55  
Buck; when putting in the root pass, are you moving the rod up and down or in and out of the beveled gap to keep from burning through?



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Buck

02-05-2004 17:30:11




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 Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to cmbb, 02-05-2004 16:03:21  
There are a lot of variables here. Depending on what code you are working under, API, AWS. Just about all the pipe tests I have taken, the pipe is pre beveled to what was required at the time, usually 30 degrees if memory serve, then there was some lee way as to how much land you could file into the toe of the bevel. With 1/8” rod I liked 1/16” land with 5/64” to 3/32” root opening max! On a 1-G test I would place the pipe with the largest gap on top. Now with a 6-G test I would make one tack weld little longer than the other three. If the inspector was not watching to close, I would place that longer tack weld rolled off center of 12 o’clock so when I made the one side welding with my left hand, it would be less distance to travel! What I was trying to say in the last post about the visual. If the pipe is to move a product, the inspector will be very particular to the amount of weld that sticks into the pipe, usually no more than 1/16”. Then the hard part, the weld has to be uniform all the way around, for height and width. Or you do not continue with the test. If the test requires you to run the root pass up hill with all the other passes this is much harder. Some test will allow you to run the first pass down hill, a lot easier. You have to learn the keyhole technique. Let me tell you pipe welders are nothing short of artiest! I was a structural welder, but required to take pipe test once in awhile. It has been at least 18 years since I took a pipe test. So don’t hold me to every little detail. T_Bone will jump in here and correct me where I have strayed. Hope this helps!!

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T_Bone

02-06-2004 02:58:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to Buck, 02-05-2004 17:30:11  
Hi Buck,

Sink by yourself and don't drag me in with you...LMAO

T_Bone



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cmbb

02-06-2004 12:25:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to T_Bone, 02-06-2004 02:58:02  
Gentlemen; Thanks for all the replies, they were all a help! I started the course at the local tech college. I can see where practice and time under a hood is needed. The root passes I made looked pretty grim!!!!! I think Stevie Wonder could have done better! It is open root 6"dia.
The instructor said to use 3/32 rod, 6010 and move the rod up and down in the keyhole. I think I was running 68 amps. I think that I will try the 1/8 rod as T-Bone suggested. Is a steady arc and just forward rod travel the proper way for the root pass or do you kind of whip it or make circles with the rod in the keyhole?

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T_Bone

02-07-2004 07:41:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to cmbb, 02-06-2004 12:25:27  
Hi cmbb,

The suggestions I gave was for using 1/8" electrodes. By using 3/32" rods your trying to fill a larger gap at one time with less filler metal.

Root opening and land thickness is very critical on open root welding for a pictular electrode diameter at a certian heat setting and can be controlled thru arc length and travel speed.

I don't like practicing with a smaller electrode diameter than what will be required on the weld test as then you will need to find the new root opening, new land thickness, new heat setting, new arc length, anotherwards your back to square one.

T_Bone

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cmbb

02-07-2004 15:54:54




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to T_Bone, 02-07-2004 07:41:13  
Mr. T

Thanks for the info! Very informative.



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Rick

02-09-2004 12:43:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pipe welding test? in reply to cmbb, 02-07-2004 15:54:54  
You might check out this site when you get time

http://www.specialmetalswelding.com/contacts/weldfrm.htm



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