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condensation

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Tim

01-20-2004 07:12:12

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Just happened to find this site in my search for a solution to a condensation problem. Have just finished building an A-Frame within the last year. We have a metal roof and we have condensation leaks. We have exposed ceilings.We used a 1x6 v-groove pine board for the ceiling. On the roof side of the 1x6 v-groovee we placed a 1" foam insulation panel 4x8. The metal roof was screwed to the 2x4's running parallel with the roof (every 8 feet). No we didn't use roofing paper. Never considered condensation being a potential pproblem. From the roof side of the v-groove to the metal roof there is the difference of the 1" foam panel and the 2x4 for ventilation. Any suggestions. We are planning on taking the metal off, but need to know what to do to solve the condendation problem.

Thanks Tim

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D.L.

01-21-2004 06:07:20

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Re: condensation in reply to Tim, 01-20-2004 07:12:12

Hi Tim,
I had a couple more thoughts... nobody mentioned the placement of the vapor barrier. It must go directly over your 1x6 T&G. If you were to place it over the insulation board, the moisture would penetrate the ceiling material and the insulation board creating a soggy mess. So, the correct sequence is: 1x6 T&G, vapor barrier, insulation, air space, metal roofing material.
Also, as Carpenter mentioned, you may want to consider adding insulation. If memory serves, our local code requires R-38 in the roof... R-18 in the walls (but we get pretty cold here). I would guess you might need about R-18 (at least) in your roof. The idea is to keep the roof deck COLD and well ventilated. If the roofing system is applied correctly, condensation will never find its way into your house!

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D.L.

01-21-2004 09:12:26

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Re: Re: condensation in reply to D.L., 01-21-2004 06:07:20

Geez, I can't leave this alone... After giving this more thought, I realized I needed to add one other thing to think about... My previous description pertaining to the vapor barrier is correct for a conventional roof, and still applies in this case. BUT, in addition to all the layers previously described, you would probably want another barrier layer directly under your metal roofing. This layer should be roofing felt (or house wrap) or other water resistant but breatheable material. The purpose is to allow any moisture condensed from the atmosphere to run off the roof and not penetrate into your insulating material. Again, since you're using the ridgid foam insulation, you will be OK doing this. You would NEVER "encapsulate" fiberglass (or any other type of loose insulation) in this manner because it will trap moisture and result in mold and rot.
I think I'm finished now!

Regards,
D.L.

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Tim Johnson

01-21-2004 16:38:20

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Re: Re: Re: condensation in reply to D.L., 01-21-2004 09:12:26

D.L.,

I really appreciate your concern and comments. You have no idea how helpful you have been. The house wrap is a great idea. Everybody has been extrememly helpful. I just wish I had been smart enough to ask before I put the metal on.
Again many thanks.

Tim

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speed bump

01-20-2004 22:32:08

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Re: condensation in reply to Tim, 01-20-2004 07:12:12

Tim , when I read your post I was struck by the seriousness of your situation . the tin does have to come off . the condensation is from the tin being warm on one side and cold on the other . you must raise the tin and let air flow freely from your soffets to the peak and escape . this will eliminate the condensation . I agree with the moisture from the heaters is adding to the problem . a friend of mine had a condensation problem around his skylights and found it was from drying cloths in the basement on a close line bye the wood burner as the cause .

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Tim Johnson

01-21-2004 04:39:05

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Re: Re: condensation in reply to speed bump, 01-20-2004 22:32:08

Speed Bump,

Thank you for the reply. I agree. I'm going to add a vapor barrier and a another 2x4 on the existing 2x4's that the metal is screwed to. Thanks again. I can't believe how helpful everyone has been. I really appreciate all the time and concern.

Tim

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carpenter

01-20-2004 19:13:54

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Re: condensation in reply to Tim, 01-20-2004 07:12:12

Tim,

I am a builder from Minnesota and understand your problem all to well. You have more problems than the dripping. Included are rotting of the structural and cosmetic wood members, mold that is a health issue and the energy efficiancy of your building.

We nead to know the climate your house is in, how far north or south?

What is the humidity leval in your home?

Is the condensing moisture from the inside or is it condensation from your ventalation?

Without this information it is hard to even start a plan to end your problem.

You are going to be pulling the metal off and if you don't want to pull it off again you nead to get it wright this next time.

Post back with more details about your climate both inside and out. I relize I sound harsh but I would like to help.

Carpenter.

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01-20-2004 18:01:25

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Re: condensation in reply to Tim, 01-20-2004 07:12:12

HEY!!
Carpenter & D.L.,

Brain Dead. NOT 1X12'S---THEY ARE 2X12'S. Whew!!! This is getting serios. My bad.

Thanks
Tim

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carpenter

01-20-2004 17:01:30

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Re: condensation in reply to Tim, 01-20-2004 07:12:12

Tim,

We nead to know the climate your house is in, how far north or south?

What is the humidity leval in your home?

Is the condensing moisture from the inside or is it condensation from your ventalation?

Without this information it is hard to even start a plan to end your problem.

You are going to be pulling the metal off and if you don't want to pull it off again you nead to get it wright this next time.

Post back with more details about your climate both inside and out. I relize I sound harsh but I would like to help.

Carpenter.

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carpenter

01-20-2004 19:49:23

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Re: Re: condensation in reply to carpenter, 01-20-2004 17:01:30

Very sorry for the multiple cloned posts.
It appears D.L. and I posted at the exact same second and mine was delayed so I sent it again.

I agree with D.L.
The thing is I suspect your insulation is border line as bead board is only about r-2 or a little better for one inch and others are sometimes a lot better. Maybe in your climate summer is a bigger issue for insulation.

Most moisture is carried by moving air and not tranpiration through a vaper barrier. A vaper barrier slows down transpiration and air movement to miner levels.

If it where mine I would add an air barrier or vaper barrior, more insulation, and be sure to created supperior ventilation under the metal.
Lastly I like the idea of something to drain any leakage or condenstion from the underside of the metal. The ventilation will be very helpful in the summer also.

Once again sorry for the redundent posts before.

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Tim Johnson

01-21-2004 04:49:24

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Re: Re: Re: condensation in reply to carpenter, 01-20-2004 19:49:23

Carpenter,

No problem. I really appreciate you input. I agree about the vapor barrier and air barrier. I plan on painting on a layer of acrylic sealer paint. I can get from my brother in 5 gallon buckets. Then put a layer of house wrap, plastic or felt paper on that. Then I believe I will add another 2x4 on the existing 2x4 that the metal is screwed to. Also will use the existing 4x8 insulation panels.

Thanks again.

Tim

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01-20-2004 17:57:08

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Re: Re: condensation in reply to carpenter, 01-20-2004 17:01:30

Carpenter & D.L.,

No, not harsh at all. Just stating the same comcerns that I have. I live in Kentucky just about 48 miles south of Louisville Ky. Right now the humidity level is 58. Outside temp is 20 degrees F. I built an A-Frame with the main level back in a hillside. The walls of the main level are below ground level. The front side is open. The front side faces due south. and has all the windows and doors. the other three sides are solid. The leaks begin in the morning after a cold night. As the sun rises the east side of the roof begins to leak. As the sun passes over to the west that side begins to leak. Each half of the roof is 34' from side to side and 22' from bottom to top. Each half has 18 1x12's attached a 1x12 ridgeplate. There are 1x6 v-groove pine boards on top of the 1x12's. This is all exposed on the inside. On the top side of those 1x6 v-groove boards are three rows of 2x4's running parallel with the roofline from top to bottom. These begin at the bottom and are spaced 8' apart. In between these rows of 2x4's are 1" 4x8 foam insulation panels. No plywood, no OSB board and felt underlayment. Any ideas? Thanks for you help.

Tim

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D.L.

01-20-2004 16:56:28

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Re: condensation in reply to Tim, 01-20-2004 07:12:12

There are three components for a dry roof... a good vapor barrier (as mentioned... plastic sheeting or house wrap), adequate insulation, and adequate air space. The problem is, warm moist air from the interior rises where it is stopped by the colder roofing material. The result, as you know, is condensation. I would have to agree that the ventless heaters are a major part of your problem. Years ago, I was stationed in Europe, and at that time anyway, we burned kerosene for heat. I learned that a kero heater produces about a quart of water for every gallon of fuel burned. I think it's about the same for all fuels.
You might check with local code to find the optimal amount of insulation for your area... I think your idea of ridgid foam is a good one... it can't become saturated with water as fiberglass batts would. Finally, you might want to use some furring strips to get more ventilation under the roof. Again, building codes can give you some ideas for the kind of air movement required.
Sorry this is so long... hope it helps!!!

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carpenter

01-20-2004 16:56:28

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Re: condensation in reply to Tim, 01-20-2004 07:12:12

Tim,

We nead to know the climate your house is in, how far north or south?

What is the humidity leval in your home?

Is the condensing moisture from the inside or is it condensation from your ventalation?

Without this information it is hard to even start a plan to end your problem.

You are going to be pulling the metal off and if you don't want to pull it off again you nead to get it wright this next time.

Post back with more details about your climate both inside and out. I relize I sound harsh but I would like to help.

Carpenter.

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Dieselrider

01-20-2004 15:11:14

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Re: condensation in reply to Tim, 01-20-2004 07:12:12

Tim, I have a 40'x 60' shop building that is heated. We put house wrap over the purlins under the metal roofing. It was a little extra work and expense but, no dripping. The water runs dowm the house wrap to the edge of the building. I have a shed that I put up several years ago with no heat in, that we did not put the house wrap on, and it gets condensation all the time. Drips all over my tractors. I wish I had had the foresight back then. I don,t know if this would work in your situation or not. Metal roofing is great stuff but, it would be a bummer to take it all off to put something under it now. Hope this gives you some ideas.

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Tim Johnson

01-20-2004 15:15:31

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Re: Re: condensation in reply to Dieselrider, 01-20-2004 15:11:14

Yes Dieselrider, it's a great idea! I really appreciate you taking the time to post a reply. Not that much of a problem. We used screws instead of nails. Thanks again. I believe you have solved the problem.

Tim

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Dieselrider

01-20-2004 18:15:29

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Re: Re: Re: condensation in reply to Tim Johnson, 01-20-2004 15:15:31

I'm very glad to help.

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Jay

01-20-2004 11:03:58

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Re: condensation in reply to Tim, 01-20-2004 07:12:12

A couple of thoughts:

I would strongly recommend a ceiling fan and leaving it run on low 24/7. They more than make up for the amount of electricity they use (just about none) in comfort.

Second. What are you heating with? I know ventless propane/natural gas create a lot of condensation, especially in tight buildings.

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Tim Johnson

01-20-2004 14:42:28

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Re: Re: condensation in reply to Jay, 01-20-2004 11:03:58

Thanks for the reply Jay. We have two ceiling fans. The A-Frame is open space except for main floor living room, kitchen, BR , bath and utility. We use ventless about 60% of the time. Our leaks occur after a cold night, frost in the morning. As the sun rises and the rays hit the metal roof our leaks start. We face due south, so the early morning sun begins the leaks on half the house and travels over the top to the other half of the house.
We appreciate your help.

Tim

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Jay

01-20-2004 15:00:44

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Re: Re: Re: condensation in reply to Tim Johnson, 01-20-2004 14:42:28

There is no other way to say it - that sucks.

I would still attribute the ventless heaters to a large part of it.

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Tim Johnson

01-20-2004 15:18:20

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Re: Re: Re: Re: condensation in reply to Jay, 01-20-2004 15:00:44

Jay I agree on both comments. The ventless has definitely compounded the problem. Thanks again.

Tim

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