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runaway engines

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EIL

01-17-2004 14:25:54




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As some of you might know from my previous posts, I am a student at a vo-tech school and yesterday my teacher and another mechanic were descussing runaway engines. They had some pretty amazing stories such as my teacher was explaining how he used to work on natural gas compressors and they flywheel was 10 feet in diameter and one of them came off the engine and took off into the nearby woods. He said they looked for two days and couldn't find it. Another mechanic was saying how a v-16 detroit in a fishing boat ran away and he jumped ontop the engine couse it was the safest place to be. Has anyone experienced a runaway engine? From what I hear, if it starts running off the oil in the base, it becomes out of control. Anyone ever had this happen to them?

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JeffE

01-20-2004 05:36:01




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
Happened to me last summer on an older 2 stroke jet ski engine. Went to start it after winter storage, always started hard....gave it a little shot of ether. Engine started right up then went crazy..... wide open and then some. Wouldn't stop when the key was shut off, not easy to crimp the fuel line, I had a spark plug wrench nearby and slowly loosened the plug, finally stopped, I'm glad the plug didn't get sent up through my roof or through me! Engine ran for about a minute wide open, ran OK after that too. Scared the h$%^ of out me.

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Rick

01-19-2004 10:57:26




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
I had a Mercury Capri (mustang look-a-like) that had a turbo on it's little 4 cylinder engine.
One day I hit the throttle...loved the power that turbo gave it. When I let off the throttle I was in for a ride - the waste gate had stuck open forcing air into the engine. I hit the brakes and it didn't even slow down. Tried turning off the key, to no avail. The car and I ended up wedged between a tree and a house.
The salvage yard that bought the car from the insurance company showed me the engine. All the pistons were melted to the cylinder walls.
What a mess.

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Fred OH

01-19-2004 10:54:58




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
Back years ago I went aboard a navy ship...The USS Alamo to be exact...the fellows there told me about a boat engine they had on the test stand that run away with them. The first class engineman by the name of Gardocki ordered everyone else out of the engine shop and tried to stop it with rags in the air intake... I guess it took a suction on the crankcase and he couldn't stop it. Six months later they were still finding small parts of the engine in the nooks and crannies of the shop. I always use the saying "The devil hates a coward" but when a deisel everruns around me...I'm runnin! Nuff said Fred OH

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Nominday

01-18-2004 21:54:02




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
Massey-Ferguson 65 diesel tractors had a forward facing airscoop on the nose of the tractor feeding down to an oil bath air cleaner. Massey issued a service bulletin that warned us dealers to plug or tape the opening when hauling the tractors with the nose forward as the air could be rammed through the air-cleaner fast enough to to distribute oil clear into any cylinder with an open exhaust valve. When the engine is started, it will "run-away" 'til the oil is gone. It seemed a stretch to us but maybe at 90 mph it could happen.

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Davis In SC

01-18-2004 17:31:07




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
EIL, you sure got a lot of interesting stories from your question. I really enjoyed reading them. Regards to all, Davis



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Taylor Lambert

01-18-2004 17:03:36




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
I was about 13 dad had a B414 International he gardened with. It had an oil bath breather and the previous owner didnt tell him it had the wrong breather on it. The oil level was marked with a line so the first time dad changed it he added too much. the tractor looked like a pull tractor with the black smoke that was rolling out. It finally got settled down after about 30 seconds. I was a mchanic and operator on a dirt job and I was on a dozer and saw folks runnin from a trench. and smoke just rolling I got over ther and they was a trench compactor running away in the trench i hopped down there with a 2cy4 block and put it on the breather and it sucked the breath board 1/4 inch into the breather. I could smell oil and the operator a young laborer was telling me he put oil in it while one guy was trying to tell me the pump caused it. Oil was comming out of the dipstick as well. It was a Hatz engine and has a 2.5 quart oil capacity and it was comming out of the dipstick. The laborer didnt know the machine had a dipstick after I told him where to check it. I looked in the oil fill on the valve cover and motor oil was over the valves. He though it was a big lawn mower type engin and put in about 2 gallons. Later in the job he would do that to get out of saturday work so he was relived of any work. Dad said when he was 18 he had a job running old S7 Euclids and saw one runaway and the mechanic slid his leg over it and it caused him alot of of prblems for a few weeks.

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Paul Janke

01-18-2004 09:01:40




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
I was told of a new Chevrolet 265 V-8 in a dealer's shop for a tune-up and carburetor rebuild. The tune-up was done first. Then the mechanic removed the carburetor. Somebody later hopped in to move it. It started and then proceeded to suck in fuel from the disconnected fuel line and all the air it could stand. The person in it didn't think to shut off the key. It revved high, fast. Didn't last long. This was in the mid to late '50's.

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MarkB

01-18-2004 04:30:55




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
I personally know of two incidents with runaway diesel engines. In both cases it was due to the operator inadvertently disabling the governor.

The first one, which I didn't actually see, was a D4-U2 Cat. It wasn't pulling properly (or so my Dad thought), so he was fiddling with the injector pump rack while it was running. The rack came loose and all four injectors went to full on. The crew estimated that the engine reved to over 8000 rpm; this is an engine that spent its whole life below 2000 rpm. They tried to kill it by dumping the clutch: the clutch instantly disintegrated. I don't recall why the fuel shutoff didn't work, but they eventually killed it by crushing the fuel line (a 1/2" copper line). They probably would have tried to plug the intake, but the pre-cleaner was in the way. I helped to tear down this engine, and the internal damage was incredible: bent push rods, broken lifters, broken piston.

In the second instance, I was one of the guilty parties. We had pulled an injector out of a Mercedes marine diesel and thought it would be a good idea to hit the starter to blow debris out ot the injector hole. These engines have a throttle body, and govern the engine at a constant manifold vacuum, a fact neither of us understood at the time. (Perkins diesels use a similar arrangement.) We had removed the throttle body, which meant there was, for all intents and purposes, no governor. Normally the Mercedes was hard to start, but it instantly fired up and reved up to several thousand rpm. We immediately closed off the fuel, but it took several minutes before it finally died. Surprisingly, the Mercedes ran fine after that for the next fifteen years until the boat ran aground in a hurricane and was holed.

I've heard that it used to be common to have runaway diesels caused by cleaning the oil bath air cleaner with gasoline and not getting the bowl dry before adding oil.

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John A

01-17-2004 21:18:20




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
EIL, About 20 yrs at a Diesel School in Okmulgee, Okla That a friend of mine was attending.....A Detroit Diesel 6V-71 on a engine stand for a class....The fuel racks hung wide open on this ol girl, on start up.....It took off like a rocket, the RPM went to climbing through the roof..... The professor grabbed a machinest hammer , ran buy the engine and knocked the fuel line off,...The big Sun Tack read 8,000 RPMs, as the prof is getting the thunder out of Dodge!
As No Luck would have it the fuel line swung away from the engine.....Then flipped back, shooting fuel straight into the blower. a short while later this engine blew up.....Est RPMs between 10,000 & 11,000
They said it got quite entertaining around there for a while.
Later,
John A.

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Roger

01-17-2004 19:48:36




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
Most oil and gas sites will not allow diesels on their property unless they have some way of positively closing the intake. When they get a sniff of natural gas, or sour gas, they go off like banshees. I remember installing a sewer gate valve on the intake hose of a John Deere powered compressor for this purpose.



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kwright

01-17-2004 19:03:59




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
I've worked on motorcycles off and on for 30 years - as a hobby. I'm not a professional mechanic.

Small two-stroke engine have been known to "run away" (not sure that's the right term, actually).

Turning off the ignition will not usually stop them, as they are running on the glowing carbon in the combustion chamber. Shut off the fuel and get away 'til it dies, that's it's handled (assuming its not in motion).

I've not personally experienced this, but I have a couple of buddies that are professional mechanics w/solid reputations and I believe each of them has encountered it once in their careers.

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Greg F.

01-17-2004 18:38:52




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
We had a two cylinder two stroke do it one time. Fresh rebuild and had an air leak somewhere. Started it up and it went nuts. After all attempts to shut it down failed we just backed off and let it fly apart.

Bad day.



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thurlow

01-17-2004 17:51:52




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
Fellow who delivers my fuel had his truck engine (diesel) run away with him while he was dropping off a load of gasoline (not at my place). Forgotten the details, but the wind was blowing strongly from rear toward front of truck; somehow gasoline or gasoline vapor got into the air and was carried to the engine. It ran away; think it finally blew up. Don't know if Steve in TN monitors this board; 'twas his brother; he could probably furnish some details..... .

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buickanddeere

01-17-2004 17:24:10




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
I keep the pre-cleaner bowl loose enough on the 435 to pull it off without tools and cap intake pipe with the palm of the hand. Detroit two strokes rebuilt on a budget at home usually don't get the supercharger oil seal upgrade.A groove is machined into the blower end plates and a seal installed. That upgrade was for a reason. Harper Detroit Diesel in Toronto had a run away but no one was hurt, just scared. A tandam dump truck years ago had the pair of old oilbath aircleaners serviced by an apprentice. He filled then to the top instead of to the line. Never did find out if he used motor oil or was flushing the screens with kerosene. The kid backed the truck out of the shop without incident but when he reved her up..... .... The engine began to draw the fluid out of the oilbath and into the engine. VVVVV VVRRRRR RROOOOO OOOOOMMMMM MMMMM MMM. To the young lad's credit he knew enough to crank the steering to full lock and rode the brakes.He circled the yard through billowing smoke, screaming engine and howling brakes while everyone else was deciding where to run.

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Wayne

01-17-2004 20:19:04




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 Re: Re: runaway engines in reply to buickanddeere, 01-17-2004 17:24:10  
For those of you that just read buickanddeeres post, PLEASE don't try shutting off intake air on any engine with your bare hand like he suggests he does. He may have simply mistated what he does, or whatever, but I can't let something unsafe like that pass without comment. Think about it a 250cuin engine turning at 2100RPM (that's 250x2100=525000 cuin per minute or divided that by 1728= almost 304cuft per minute) Now 304 cu ft of air trying to pass through a hole as small as most intakes is just as likely to try pulling your hand in, breaking fingers, etc. as it is the air. If you need to shut off the air, use your shirt, a piece of board, or whatever is handy, PLEASE DON'T USE A BODY PART..... ..That said, the old 2 stroke Detroits are good ones to 'run away' in several different ways. After you hit the fuel shutdown it can still draw oil past the blower seals and run on that as one post said. Usually shutting the emergency shutdown flap and cutting off air flow will shut it down, but if conditions are right it can suck enough air and oil to keep going regardless. The other way is when it decides to run backwards. This can happen from being spun backwards by a hydraulic pump being tested (Dad experienced this one years ago on an old AC scraper), letting a machine roll backwards while in gear, etc. The old AC engines themselves were notorious for going wide open also if the governor wasn't reassembled correctly. In just about any engine if you get a condition where for some reason you can't shut off the source of fuel then you have the makings of a runaway. The best and usually only way to stop them then is to shut off the intake air..... with something other than a body part..... . Just my .02, be safe....

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buickanddeere

01-18-2004 05:44:53




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 Re: Re: Re: runaway engines in reply to Wayne, 01-17-2004 20:19:04  
Already tried it to see if it would work. Just like putting one hand over the end of the vacuum cleaner. Boggs her down in seconds leaving the area smelling like 1/2 burned diesel fuel. You can't get more than 14.7 psi delta P across the barrier and real world would be closer to 10.0psi The pipe feeding the 2-53's aircleaner is only 2.0" dia. Now if the engine is in the shop and test run without an aircleaner then keeping anything and eveything that could get sucked down the inlet into a blower or turbo is a good idea. Mechanic at Harper Detroit lost a hand in a roots blower rotors, running without the inlet pipework many years ago. We are talking a 3 or 4" pipe on most diesels not a gas turbine intake. And yes people do get drawn into building HVAC fans and large industrial cooling fans too. The thrust from the rush of air increases with the cube root of the velocity. (pretty certain it's not the square root). Moving in closer to the inlet, at 1/2 the distance can easily increase the "pull" 9 times. Detroit Edison lost a female engineer that way about 10 years ago.

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Wayne

01-18-2004 10:56:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: runaway engines in reply to buickanddeere, 01-18-2004 05:44:53  
On your 2-53 with a 2 inch intake the hand on the intake trick may have worked, youve already done it, I can't dispute that. My concern was that somewhere out there something like this would happen with a larger engine. Being in such a situation some people often don't take time to really think about what they are doing beyond thinking that they had read somewhere that you could block the intake with a hand. Personally I could block a 3.5 inch intake with one hand, no problem. That gives 9.62 sq inches if surface area on the back side if the hand over the intake. With 14.7 psi acting on each sq inch that's 141.43 lbs of pressure acting on your hand. Since there is a vacuum on the other side you'd have to overcome at least 141.43psi of pressure on one side, as well as a similar amount of suction force/vacuum on the other in order to remove your hand, after you get it on the pipe and sealed. Factor in the inrush when you first get your hand close, like you indicated, and you have the conditions to have your hand being slammed against the intake pipe with a force of no less than 141lbs. If you increase the pull 9 times like you indicate, in effect that magnifies the pressure on the top side to 141x9 or 1269 lbs. of pressure slamming your hand against the intake pipe. I don't know about you, but I don't think my hand can handle the force of being slammed that hard without something breaking..... Think about the example given in the other post about engines running backwards. If the guy had set down on the intake of a Detroit and manages to get his rectum directly over the intake instead of just a cheek. That Detroit would have in effect become a huge vacuum cleaner trying to suck a massive volume of air from his insides which would not have been a good thing. I know my math may not be perfect, I'm no mathmatician by any means. Still, my point is that just because the pressures/vacuums aren't that high, it's the action of those forces being magnified due to the size on the surface areas involved (ie your hand, etc) as well as the velocity of the airflow that makes this type of think hazardous to attempt. Rule of thumb is always ''Better safe than sorry''..... . again just my .02

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buickanddeere

01-18-2004 15:55:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: runaway engines in reply to Wayne, 01-18-2004 10:56:55  
The math needs a little clarification there. An engine is an airpump but is not 100% efficient. The most delta P across a 3.5"dia pipe would be about 10psi over the 9.62 square inches of area or 96.2 lbs. Nasty but better than straddling a whirling flywheel. The cube root number isn't applied that way. Pick the point of max force caused by the weight of flowing air. Everytime you double your distance away from the max point the force decreases 9 times. Explains why the force felt at the intake of an ordinary room ventilation fan is negligible until your hand is almost right on the intake screen then the force rapidly increases the last fractions of an inch.

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Wayne

01-18-2004 21:37:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: runaway engines in reply to buickanddeere, 01-18-2004 15:55:40  
Hey again buickanddeere, like I said I'm no mathmatician, never will claim to be, so when you get into cube roots, etc I'm way out of my league. I'm a heavy equipment mechanic by trade. I work in the field and have seen alot of different things over the years, like having to take a board to shut off the intake to a 6-71 Detroit with an injector stuck at speed so you can't cut the fuel, and see just how hard and fast it draws that board down on the intake snout..... I'm not gonna place any part of my body in that position for anybodys money. The engine can be rebuilt, my body can't..... Seeing something like that I don't need any complicated math to be able to visualize how it is to stick my hand over the end of a vacuum cleaner hose and feel the mount of force being applied trying to pull the hand inside and to be able to multiply that amount of suction exponentially as applied to the amount of air being sucked into an engine. All mathmatics aside, in 99.99999% of the cases attempting to stop an engine using a body part is gonna be dangerous and shouldn't be attempted. If you don't have a shirt, board, rag, something lying around to use, then let the damm thing blow up, it isn't worth taking the chance..... Again, just my opinion, and it's a given in some cases it can be done, so I mean no disrespect to you or anybody else out there that want's to try this for yourself.....

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EIL

01-18-2004 11:27:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: runaway engines in reply to Wayne, 01-18-2004 10:56:55  
One guy at school many years ago stood too close to the intake of a 6-71 and got his gut pulled onto the intake. It killed the engine and left him bruised for three weeks. He said he was in major pain.



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Rusty Jones

01-19-2004 12:05:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-18-2004 11:27:18  
Guess I'd might as well add my story to this: Our Volunteer fire Company bought a new fire truck with a 6-71 Detroit diesel. We were out on driver training one day. One fellow pulled up to a stop sign on a slight grade. When he went to pull out, he stalled the engine, but it caught again. Not knowing the thing was running backwards, or even knowing that it could, he let out the clutch, and the truck started going backwards, instead of forward! It took some shouting to make him understand that he had to shut it down and start over! Luckily there wasn't any car behind him! RJ

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Bernard le mécano

01-20-2004 12:18:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: runaway engines in reply to Rusty Jones, 01-19-2004 12:05:19  
Hi Rusty, when the timing marks are near 0°, the engine may turn over easily. GM engine runaway when injector stick in high speed or when the blower suck engine oil by seals. The governor don't stop it. Pull the emergency stop quickly. I saw a 436 ci, in IH farm tractor, blowed up when the guy start the engine in winter. He push the throttle lever all the way up, for cold start on this engine,when the engine fired, he pull the lever to the idle position, but the cable broke. The engine gone to full RPM , then blow up. Bernard le mécano Québec Canada

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Leroy

01-17-2004 16:55:19




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
Years ago, I was driving a 1948Buick car with carberator; long before fuel injection; one of the ball joints on the accilerator connections poped off, carb opened to full speed, was able to shut down with ingnition key, poped the joint back together and went on, later replaced worn conection



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Davis In SC

01-17-2004 16:37:04




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
About ten years ago, I was talking to the driver that delivered gas to the local station, & he told me he had a runaway the week before. It in a Freightliner with a Cummins 11 liter engine. He had sent it to a shop earlier to have some work done to the turbo, & after that it would idle too high. he said that all at once, all heck broke out with RPM's going higher & higher.He shot 2 huge extingushers into the air cleaner , then wrapped a rainsuit around it, but engine ran till it broke. He told me that they estimated that the engine hit 10,000 rpm's. Hard to believe, but he told me that. They tore it down & found everything was bent or broken. It seems there was going to be some possible legal action, so they documented everything when they had engine torn down. They found that one of the oil seals in the turbo was bad, allowing oil to be sucked into the intake.

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raytasch

01-17-2004 15:57:15




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
I've heard of run away engines, don't know how many are urban legends or how many are factual. Shows up in diesels mainly where you have no way to shut it down so long as it is ingesting something combustable. I've heard it happening with coal dust, grain dust, liquid petroleum, and other sources that I don't remember. ray



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bob

01-17-2004 17:17:02




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 Re: Re: runaway engines in reply to raytasch, 01-17-2004 15:57:15  
It happened to me. 3 cyl. diesel in JD 350 dozer. For no reason I ever found out it started racing like wild! scary. Jammed blade in ground until it finally stalled out. Looked it over, saw nothing & started it up. Ran ok, never did it again. They will run away if they start sucking air somewhere as running out of fuel in the tank or thru a hole in the line, etc. Also if you break a natural gas line & they suck gas thru the breather, hold on! Shutting off fuel lever, key, makes absolutely no difference. They will blow up if you can't get them stopped.

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george md

01-17-2004 15:21:07




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 Re: runaway engines in reply to EIL, 01-17-2004 14:25:54  
EIL,

Typically you don't have runaway engines ,

you have over speed engine and runaway operator.

george



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bruce kefauver

12-26-2004 16:06:57




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 Re: Re: runaway engines in reply to george md, 01-17-2004 15:21:07  
It's a 1986 Ford Ranger,2.0,2 wheel drive,5 speed.The carb is stuck wide open.



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Rob

01-17-2004 16:05:00




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 Re: Re: runaway engines in reply to george md, 01-17-2004 15:21:07  
I've only heard of runaway locomotives, garbage trucks and runaway trains. most of these are because some idiot or other forgot to set the parking brake and is now looking for a job. But runaway engines, well that depends, did it just grow legs and run away, or did it have human help? hahaha like someone stealing the engine. but in theory, I think that a runaway engine MAY be possible. I've heard of engine over revving and I've heard of under lubrication too. but I have NEVER heard of runaway engines.

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