Gas appliances

Repair by internet will get someone killed!!!

T_Bone

The only common reason I can think of for his problems is that he is not using a large enough propane tank to feed them with, and the liquid propane cannot vaporize fast enough to supply the needs of the heater/water heater. Their local propane dealer can answer that question for them.

You need to call a qualified service tech as it coud be you have other problems that need correction for your safety.

Very few times does two gas appliance break down at the same time!!!

T_Bone

Electric is 100% efficient once it gets to your house. I'm curious if their coal/oil generating plants are 100% efficient? Line loss?

SOMETIMES electricity is cheaper.

You can't make a blanket statement about the efficiency of someones gas appliances without knowing about them. The electric companies are famous for saying that exact same thing. Oil/gas are only 60% efficient. I don't think there has been a 60% furnace/water heater made for at least 40 years.

My water heater (oil) is 84%, and it's about 25 years old. My furnace (oil) is 83%, and about 10 years old. New gas water heaters are about 97%, and furnaces 92.6%. A ventless heater, as he talks about, is 100%.

Now before you start talking about all the money he will save figure this: Electricity has 3413 Btu's per kWh. Fuel Oil 140,000 Btu per gallon. Propane 91,800 per gallon. Natural gas 1,000,000 Btu per MCF.

My #2 is $1.12 per gallon. So my furnace gives me 116,200 Btus per gallon. For electricity, that's 34 kWh. Electricity would have to be less than 3.3 cents per kWh to be cheaper than my oil.

Link

My electricty to the meter is 8.7 cents per kw Which is 10.78 Kwhr to replace 1 liter of #2 oil if the oil was 100% effient.LP is worse yet at 55 cents/ liter delivered. The typical oil hot water heater being several years old and has some heat insulating soot. And the typical home owners purchase the cheapest appliance, not the most effient. Certainly no more than 75% efficent real world. I can get oil delivered for 65 cents per liter. The same amout of heat electrically costs 70.3 cents in the water heater application @ 75% eff. No moving parts, no smell in the house, no chance of ignition if the wife or kids pile flamable items/fluids in the furnace room. Ask a fire fighter how often that happens. No chimmney to leak or have to clean. No flame to go out or refuse to light. Don't forget you are heating that air drawn into the house that just gets drawn into the burner and goes up the stack. Direct vent systems are still a small minority. The cost of converting my electric furnace and hot water heater will not pay the interest on new fossil equipment even with a cheap line of credit with the savings. The fireplace insert with heat exchanger and direct frsh air vent from outside ( very uncommon) will carry the place when the power is out.

I couldn't get the .pdf pages to load, so I have no idea what they say. But I do have to take issue with a few things.

First, you are right. Electricity is 100% at your meter. My statement about the generating plants was not important. However since you bring up the point of stink and cleanliness in your house, I think it's fair that the same thing be applied to electric plants. Hydro and nukes are clean, but there aren't a lot of them around. You are fortunate.

Your calculations on kWh per liter of oil is correct, 10.78.

I disagree with your point about people buying cheap appliances. Where I live (it was -34F on Monday morning, no wind chill figured in), we look for the highest efficiency we can buy. Especially when in a furnace, its only about $100 to $150 difference. Your statement may be true for those in California. They offset in cost will probably never pay for itself.

If your oil costs 65 cents per litre, oil is still cheaper. At 83% efficient as my furnace is, a litre of fuel (36,842 Btus) is the same as 8.96 kWh. That would be 78 cents worth of electricity using your figures. (36,842 X .83 = 30578 Btus 30578/ 3413 btu/kWh= 8.96 kWh 8.96 X $0.087 = $0.96)

Now efficiency. I have never tested the efficiency of a gas appliance, that's why I'm sticking with the oil. I have tested my oil furnace and water heater. I did it myself using acceptable methods of stack temp, smoke, and a fyrite tester. It's 83%. It's not an ideal world. That's what it is. New furnaces are more efficient. True there is loss going up the stack, but a complete efficiency test takes that into account. If it didn't, oil would be 100% efficient like your electricity.

No moving parts, no smell in the house, no chance of ignition if the wife or kids pile flamable items/fluids in the furnace room. Ask a fire fighter how often that happens. No chimmney to leak or have to clean. No flame to go out or refuse to light.

What kind of electric? Blower models have fans and elements that burn out. Baseboard? My kid melted her trumpet case being to close to one of them at the inlaws. I can't put funiture over them. I have no doubt a fireman would say that oil/gas fires happen a lot. I would like to see statistics on that versus electricity. In the 15 years I've been doing this, I know of none in my area vs. a couple every year with electricity (maybe or maybe not related to the electrical heating equipment, but still electrical). You suggestion of "chance of ignition" is silly. If you have flamable stuff in your house, you could as easily ignite it from turning on a light switch.

When your furnace refuses to light, or the pilot goes out that is your safety equipment working for you.

Something you didn't mention. If you are 100% electric, you do not need a carbon monoxide detector. With ANY fossil fuels you do. A properly installed and maintained furnace will never give you problems, but it's like buying fire insurance, you hope you never have to use it.

However, if you are going to use a fireplace for backup heat, you DO need a carbon monoxide detector. And you are right, that will give you heat when the power is out. On the other hand, my $400 generator will power my furnace AND my water heater, AND force the warm air to everywhere in my house, and not just some small corner in the basement. And after I'm done cooking on my gas stove (sorry, don't really have one but this is all in fun anyways) I will slip into the hot bathtub with a good book and listen to the howling wind and snow, knowing that I don't have to go out for another armload of wood.

Have a great winter :)
Jay

I think that's Darwin's Theory of Evolution at work there. Not the water heater.

Leaking gas blowing up a house makes the news here every few months here.

Yep - I know that happens, but it's quite rare. I don't personally know of one instance of that.

No chimney other than the fireplace, not tearing up the roof and an outside stack at the front of the house isn't pretty.

You have me there. That is probably the #1 reason why oil isn't put in many new houses, but I believe it's because of cost, not appearances.

A direct vent system would be facing the famous Bruce County prevailing winds off the lake. Nasty enough there is a windmill farm on the next block. Probably would install Newmac grated wood/coal/oil boiler in a "pool shed" in the back yard and run hot water lines to a plenum hx.

Ok, but, if the winds aren't bad enough for the stack of your wood/coil/oil boiler, they won't even touch a direct vent appliance. Plus any installer worth 2 cents will keep prevailing winds in mind.

I agree with you, electric heat is a great heat. But it isn't all things to all people. Nor is gas or oil. Each has their place based on the rates of each where you are at. Qualified technicians where you are. And of course, what you like personally.

So how about them Maple Leafs? LOL

The layout of this house would require some serious ripping up of my daughter's finished room/overfilled closet for a stack. As well as tearing up some of last years new roof for an internal chimney. Unless I can shingle around the chimney fresh and being on the prevailing side it may leak even if super gooped. A direct vent system also has to face the wind but I suppose some sort of shroud could be fastened. The local Shell installer is dead set against anything but an old-fashioned low efficiency system. Time to look at another dealer should this current system quit working. I do miss the days of cheap natural gas in a previous residence. The �indoor� Newmac boiler outside in a backyard �pool shed� would limit the trips inside with wood/dirt/snow/bugs. Keep the smoke and allergy concerns outside, reduce home insurance costs. A shovel full of cheap coal 2x a day would suffice Nov-March. Wife wants a backyard pool next year too, would make year around as pool heater. As you say the cost prevents installation of a high effciency central heating fossil system. If it doesn't always save enough $$$ to pay for it's self and isn't worth the principal cost of some retrofit installations. Let alone lost income if that money had been invested or interest had to be paid on a loan. As for the original post that we strayed so far from. An electric hot water tank may or may not be an alternative depending on the individual case but should be considered. Wonder if they lease, purchase or just have the use of the LP bottles?

Yea, adding a chimney is a b#tch. I wouldn't either.

Your local Shell dealer is looking out for himself, not you. Which in the short run will make him $, but in the long run cause him to go broke.

You: As for the original post that we strayed so far from.

Me: But in fun.

Me too: I'm not uneducated in this matter. I have my own thoughts about the steps that should be taken. My first steps were never mentioned. But because safety is #1, and no one but T-bone said it better, GET A PRO. There are possibly different things going on - either your pilot light is Going out, OR your pilot light is BLOWING out. They are very different.

Buickguywholivesonacoldlake would you agree that he should get a pro? LOL.

Jay

If that doesn't work, go out, buy a different brand of thermocouple and replace 'em again.

While you're at the, pick up a couple spare thermocouples. If the pilot is adjusted to high, a thermocouple will go out in a few months. Having a spare around will make you a hero to the Missus the next time this happens.

Did I mention that you should change out the thermocouples?

A million comedians out of work, and you want to debut here! I suppose we should feel honored.

But with both the water heater and wall heater going at the same time makes me wonder if you have more problems. Will low pressure also cause this?? If you're pulling of a small 100# tank you could be freezing it up.