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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Horizontal mill tooling

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Slowpoke

01-04-2004 23:38:13




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I have an old ('40s?)cincinatti mill that uses catagory 50 tool holders, of which I have none. Those offered on Ebay have different size collets, like 7/8, 13/16, 1" ect. Do I need one of each size? And do they all use the same drawbar?
How is the tool held in the collet? Set screws?
I've heard that an adapter will fit #50 holder to convert to C5 collets. What #50 holder will accept the adapter and how is the C5 tightened?
At $20-$60 each would it be better to buy the #50 holders, or convert to C5?
All comments and advice appreciated.
Thanks

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Fred OH

01-08-2004 10:36:13




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 Re: Horizontal mill tooling in reply to Slowpoke, 01-04-2004 23:38:13  
Slowpoke...unless you have power rapid traverse and all that, you don't even need to start that main motor...just look around and find a Bridgeport type head and install it...or a new foreign made one from Wholesale Tool Co. and you have the same as a hand feed vertical mill. The only need for the motor running would be for the use of power feeds or rapid traverse or coolant pump as the vertical head has it's own power. I've seen it done to make an old mill more usefull. A set of R-8 collets for it is generally all a small shop needs and probably less than $100. Fred OH

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Al m

01-07-2004 14:18:51




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 Re: Horizontal mill tooling in reply to Slowpoke, 01-04-2004 23:38:13  
I may be missing something,but if it is a horizontal most tooling will be driven off a arbor.If you have a universal it will have a vertical head as well as a arbor and support.The 5c collets are for work piece holding,such as in the spindle of a lathe or a dividing head etc.You do not want to hold tooling with them.
Al



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Slowpoke

01-07-2004 15:35:26




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 Re: Re: Horizontal mill tooling in reply to Al m, 01-07-2004 14:18:51  
I had forgotten that I used C5 collets in a lathe to hold work pieces several years ago. Thanks for the advice.



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SamH

01-06-2004 08:03:52




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 Re: Horizontal mill tooling in reply to Slowpoke, 01-04-2004 23:38:13  
When you say different size collets, it sounds like you are referring to the #50 adapter as a collet and not to actual collets like a 5C or R8. Is that correct? You don't need a different #50 adapter for each cutter size. Cutters are available in a variety of shank sizes. For example you can buy everything from a 3/8" to 1" in 1/2" shank diameter, so a 1/2" adapter can be used for any of them. You can also buy a #50 collet adapter and a variety of collets.

As for 5C adapters, there may be such a thing, but I don't remember seeing one. The collet adapters I know about have the type collets the others have mentioned. They have a nut that holds the collet, so you don't have to mess with a drawbar.

If you had #50 adapters in 3/8", 1/2", 3/4", 1" and a # 50 adapter that has interchangeable collets you should be set. You don't mention using face mills, but maybe that's something you will need to think about later.

If there is an industrial supply house near you, I suggest you pay them a visit and ask their advice.

Hope this helps

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Slowpoke

01-06-2004 11:42:01




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 Re: Re: Horizontal mill tooling in reply to SamH, 01-06-2004 08:03:52  
Thanks for your help. I was referring to the size of the cutting tool shank that is accepted by the #50 tool holder. Now that I've learned a little, I suppose if the shop has only 3/4" shank tools, one would only need a single 3/4" tool holder, right?
From the other posts I see that bushings could be used in the 3/4 holder to use smaller shank cutters, or from your post, that various size cutters are available with the same size shank. I saw a holder on Ebay that had 4 screw holes for mounting a face cutter with a 2" ID. What is the most common size ID for face and edge (side?) cutters? I do not have an outboard bearing holder casting. What jobs require its use?
Thanks again.

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Jim Anderson

01-06-2004 15:02:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Horizontal mill tooling in reply to Slowpoke, 01-06-2004 11:42:01  
Slowpoke, As SamH pointed out reduced shank endmills
are available either individually or in sets.
They can be real handy if your holder selection
is limited.They can have two interelated drawbacks
however.First is their shorter flute length which
can limit depth of cut.The second is lesser rigidity.A 1" shank 1" endmill is much stiffer
than a 1" endmill with a 1/2" shank.All else being
equal the more rigid the tooling is the longer the
edge life and better the finish. Face mills in the 1 1/2" to 2" ID range should
handle most anything you might do. The outboard bearing support allows the use
of a long arbor.This arbor would be used to mount
gear tooth cutters,multiple saws or slab mills.
In the shops I've worked in this was rarely used
but other folks experience's may differ.This
accessory provides support and rigidity for the
cutters being used. You mentioned bearing noise in your machine's
quill.This isn't good news.A quill big enough
to handle #50 adapters is going to have large and expensive precision bearings.You may want
to check their price before investing in any tooling.

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Slowpoke

01-06-2004 21:51:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Horizontal mill tooling in reply to Jim Anderson, 01-06-2004 15:02:45  
Jim, thanks for the 'bad' news. I was just thinking ordinary bearings for the replacement.
Maybe that's why it was put in the big scrap bin.
I think I have about $100 in it, for the forklift and trailer rents. I'll stick it on the back burner for now and when I get the shop done I'll have room to check it out.
Glad you thought of it. thanks again.



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Davis in SC

01-05-2004 15:07:24




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 Re: Horizontal mill tooling in reply to Slowpoke, 01-04-2004 23:38:13  
The holders for your mill should be the NMTB type, I think. The newer machining centers use what is known as a Cat taper holder, which was developed by Caterpillar, and has now become the standard. You should be able to find the older 50 Taper holders at a reasonable price from a shop auction or used machinery dealer. I would not advise using a 5-C collet to hold an end mill in this machine, unless you are going to take very light cuts. I have a 205 Cinci Horizontal Mill that I would sell, as I do not have room for it in my shop.

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Jim Anderson

01-05-2004 14:05:08




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 Re: Horizontal mill tooling in reply to Slowpoke, 01-04-2004 23:38:13  
Slowpoke, The 50 milling taper is a standard.The portion
that goes into the machine is the same for all.
The holder is drawn into your machine's quill by
a threaded drawbar and nut.If you buy used tooling
you may find a button shaped object screwed into
small end of the taper.This would be for a powered
drawbar application and can be removed. The different sized toolholders you mention
will generally hold only the size listed,1/2",
3/4" and so on.Mill bushings can be purchased
to allow the use of smaller cutters in larger
tool holders.The most popular sized bushings
are 3/4" OD and are bored to standard sizes.
The cutters are held in the bushings with set
screws the same way cutters are retained in
the 50 milling machine holders.In my 30 years
as a machinist I've never seen a 50 taper set
up for 5C collets but I can't say they dont exist.
There are collet adapters I've seen that use a
double tapered collet and locknut. A 3/4" tool holder and mill bushings are as
quick to change as a collet.Casey had a good
suggestion.I might also suggest that you get
the advice of someone who has used a machine
similar to yours.The old Cincinatis are great
machines.Just wished I could find one.

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Slowpoke

01-05-2004 19:52:53




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 Re: Re: Horizontal mill tooling in reply to Jim Anderson, 01-05-2004 14:05:08  
Jim, thanks for the great info. I think the adapter I was told about is the double taper for C5 collets.
My machine is three phase, so I haven't set it up yet, and it's in storage. I just happened across these tool holders and figured I better know what I'm doing before I buy any.
My mill has a 6" brass ID plate on the right side and the model block is blank. The only thing is a large "L" in the upper left corner of the plate.
I think a bearing is gone in the head as there is a bad noise when the quill is turned by hand.
Make that project #1001!

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Casey

01-05-2004 10:33:06




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 Re: Horizontal mill tooling in reply to Slowpoke, 01-04-2004 23:38:13  
I would suggest finding a good tool store selling new and used tooling there are several in my area. They usually buy tooling in lots and have tons of it. Also, they can be quite helpful in the knowledge department.



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