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Electrical service to tractor shed

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Fritz Campbell

01-01-2004 13:04:30

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I'm tired of running an extension cord across my driveway to my polebarn to plug my tractors block heater into. The biggest chore will be digging a trench across my gravel driveway (approximately 70'). The fellow that did my driveway used some serious shale that is around 18" - 24" deep. It makes a great base - but I'll have to get a backhoe in to dig the trench [it will probably look like a strip mine when I'm done]. Anyway - a couple questions. I came into a nice 100 amp service panel that I want to use for my polebarn. Can I run a 100 amp service to the polebarn off of a 100 amp breaker in my main 200 amp service panel? If so - what size cable should I run from the house garage to the polebarn? I will dig the trench at least 24" deep and be running the service cable in plastic conduit. My main service panel is full except for the two openings that I left for the polebarn service. Thanks for any help.

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Steve B

01-02-2004 18:34:02

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Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz Campbell, 01-01-2004 13:04:30

Fritz, I did the same thing this year, I ran se #4 275' through 2" pvc conduite. The reason I used se cable was because once the conduite hit the house I had to run across the full length of house indoors. Direct burial cable should not be used indoors. I connected to 100Amp breaker in main panel. I run a 50A welder and 3HP compressor as well as 7 high output flouresents without any problems. I would however go with the biggest panel you can, I am out of spaces for additional circuites . I used a square d Q-O 8 space sub panel in the barn. I would also through some phone wire in the hole as well as an additional 12-3 urd direct burial wire, so you can control a light from the house as well as your shop.

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Slowpoke

01-02-2004 22:34:06

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Re: Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Steve B, 01-02-2004 18:34:02

You cannot run telephone cable thru the conduit with the service cables. The UFC (under ground feeder cable) can't go thru it either. Water pipe must be at least 12" away.
The neighbor had 200 amp undergrand service from the pole to a new house over 200 feet. He put in the trench and 3" conduit and the power co. ran the cable to the meter. He was required to supply new "Mule Tape" ($60) to pull the cables thru, couldn't use a friend's used tape.

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buickanddeere

01-02-2004 20:23:26

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Re: Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Steve B, 01-02-2004 18:34:02

275' of #4 copper is only good for a approx 40 amp service when calculating the manditory maximum voltage drop. The local inspector will have a fit if he see's it. The ground is local to the panal at the building. Usually two 10' rods driven full depth at least 10" apart and joined to the panels ground bar with #6 bare for a 100amp service. Or a buried flat plat of so many square inches at a minimum depth. I used 50' of #6 in the bottom of a 5' deep trench. Over kill, but why not. Depending on local code the bond screw between the new shed panal and the neutral bar will not be threaded together. This is to avoid circulating currents and introducing tingle voltage problems to livestock. I used TWU wire right from my shed, though the wall and into a disconect pony paneled to the main house panel.Maxed out at 45amp with 250' of #2 aluminium.

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John K

01-03-2004 23:31:51

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Re: Re: Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to buickanddeere, 01-02-2004 20:23:26

Here in Alberta the code says that # 4 is good for only 85 amps. A rule of thumb is to increase the wire size for every additional 100 feet. #3 is good for 105 amp but for 275 feet you would need #1 to alow for voltage drop at 100 amps acording to the rule of thumb, based on copper.

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steveb

01-03-2004 18:11:14

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Re: Re: Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to buickanddeere, 01-02-2004 20:23:26

phone wire in ground not conduit.Water 5' down electric 3'.Sorry I used 100A SER.Or 2.o or 2 ot aluminum 4 conductor.Inspected and aproved.

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Short Round

01-02-2004 16:35:50

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Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz Campbell, 01-01-2004 13:04:30

Fritz, just be sure you understand the difference between the "grounded" wire and the "grounding wire" and where they are to be bonded. If in doubt check the National Electrical code book.

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Fritz

01-02-2004 17:50:26

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Re: Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Short Round, 01-02-2004 16:35:50

I won't do too much in any electrical service panel. My brother (journeyman lineman for local co-op) is the "expert". Safety first when it comes to electric services. Thanks again you guys for all the expert advice and good ideas.

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pjw

01-02-2004 08:12:26

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Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz Campbell, 01-01-2004 13:04:30

A few years back I did what you are suggesting. I ran 100 amps with #4 copper to a work shop located about 100 ft. from the house. My house panel is 150 amps; however I have very little electrical demand in the house. All major appliances are gas. Neither the barn nor the house is ever near demand. I run a 6 hp. compressor, mill and lathe at 2 hp. (220) motors, and several wood working machines that are 1hp or less @ 110 volt. The biggest demand is by 50 amp welder. The compressor and welder have both been in use at the same time and the lights do not flicker in the house. The only time my wife can tell I am out in the shop is when I use my 110 wire welder. This welder is 15 amps and plugs into a 20 amp 110 circuit. She notices some minor light flickering when I am welding heavy sheet metal. This is an older portable welder and the same results are experienced when it is used elsewhere.

I ran the #4 copper wire in conduit from the house electrical panel to the barn sub panel. At the time of digging the trench I laid an extra line of conduit which as already proved useful when I later installed a security system. The advice given for consulting electrician is a good idea as I had an electrician help me with this installation.

The best bet would be to calculate what electrical needs you have out in the tractor shed and build from there. If all you need is a circuit for warming your tractor and some lights the 100 amp service is a bit costly. However, if you plan to add machines and make this a workshop the expense and work now would be worth the effort. Also remember the GFI on your 110 circuits.

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Slowpoke

01-01-2004 18:58:24

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Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz Campbell, 01-01-2004 13:04:30

No electrician here, but you need to size the conduit to the number and size wires used. You may have a 'subpanel' in the pole barn, and grounding methods are critical. Check with a licensed electrician, even if you want to do it yourself.

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BIG WOOD

01-01-2004 17:43:22

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Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz Campbell, 01-01-2004 13:04:30

#3 copper @75C worth 100a #2 al @75C worth 90a but the NEC allows to use next size bigger over load. So either one is allowed.

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Dean Mn

01-01-2004 17:14:01

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Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz Campbell, 01-01-2004 13:04:30

In addition to the above comments, I would put 4 inches of clean sand on the bottom of the trench, place the conduit or wire on the sand, and the place at least 4 to 6 inches of clean sand again on top. You can pack the sand down good enough by walking on it and then cover with shale or other types of soil. You can even rent a pogo stick type of packer if you want to be professional about it. If you do want an electrician to do it, make sure you get a written estimate first. There are a few of them that think they have a license to steal otherwise.

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Jake

01-01-2004 16:59:42

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Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz Campbell, 01-01-2004 13:04:30

You may be able to (and probably should) run the pole shed power direct from the meter or meter pole, do not run through the house electric box.
Sounds like you'd be best to consult a qualified electrician for this.
There are places that specialize in running wires and pipes under driveways and roads without digging up the driveway. However you do need to dig a hole on either side of the drive way.

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JOHN (LA)

01-01-2004 16:34:17

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Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz Campbell, 01-01-2004 13:04:30

Just a thought..... But have you considered just putting another meter pan on the 100 amp box and having the elec company hook a above ground wire to it from the pole.
By the time you price 70 ft wire; backhoe; ect it would probley be cheaper to just add a new meter pan. Besides if your 200 amp box is near full adding a 100 amp box to it may be to much for it to handle.

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Robert D. Doebbeling

01-01-2004 15:54:37

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Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz Campbell, 01-01-2004 13:04:30

Would be worth getting an journeyman electrican to advise you, but I did a similar thing in 1994 to feed a 30 by 80 foot building, a sewer treatment plant and another smaller building from my house service. It was already a 225 amp 120/240 volt service and by using the Electrical code allowed tap rule, I installed another 225 electric panel in parallel with the existing. It meets all requirements of the National Electric code and the requirements of my local Electric Coop. That way I had less voltage drop and a lot of capacity for future use.

Texas Bob in Cleburne

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Perry

01-01-2004 14:53:48

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Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz Campbell, 01-01-2004 13:04:30

What size wire you need to run depends on how far it is from the 200 A service to the 100 A service. # 3 copper is the minimum size. I would not recommend using aluminum wire. I ran 150ft to my out building and used # 1/0 copper wire to a 100A service, when the air compressor starts the lights do not go dim. With # 3 the lights would dim.

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Dieselrider

01-01-2004 14:32:30

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Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz Campbell, 01-01-2004 13:04:30

Yes you can run a subfeed from the house to your polebarn. It might be a good idea to check all your local codes before you start. Some areas vary in what is exceptable.

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kyhayman

01-01-2004 14:29:06

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Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz Campbell, 01-01-2004 13:04:30

I ran #4 UAV in plastic conduit off a 100 amp breaker in a 200 amp disconnect (2-100 amp breakers, 1 feeds a 100 amp panel in a mobile home I rent and 1 feeds the barns).

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Jet9N

01-01-2004 14:06:11

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Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz Campbell, 01-01-2004 13:04:30

How wide is the driveway? Have you considered if
it's not more than 15 or 20 feet wide it might be
easier to drive a pipe though under the driveway.
I would drive an oversize steel pipe though and
then put the PVC though that.

Just a thought.

Jet

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Mac

01-01-2004 15:17:22

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Re: Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Jet9N, 01-01-2004 14:06:11

I seen a guy that had a home made auger, used 1/2 rod and 1/2 elec. drill. But you have to dig out a work place on each side to have room. He had a drill for 4"
and think it was 1-1/2" pvc pipe. Seemed to work OK for him. A plumber and used this set up to go under walks and drives.

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Dennis

01-01-2004 23:22:17

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Re: Re: Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Mac, 01-01-2004 15:17:22

Howdy, A friend told me about using water to put a conduit under a driveway. I took a 1/2" electrical conduit, hooked a garden hose up to one end, drilled 2 1/4" holes on the sides of the end to allow it to wash a little bigger hole. It didn't take too long of gently pushing the pipe through the hole the water was eroding to get the 10 ft. I needed. It made a hole to push a 1" electrical conduit through. This was through soil/clay. Good luck. dtanner

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Fritz

01-01-2004 17:49:26

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Re: Re: Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Mac, 01-01-2004 15:17:22

I like the idea of using the sand below and above the conduit - great idea. I don't see any other option but to dig a trench since its actually the widest part of the driveway - although I do appreciate the advice. A buddy of mine has a New Holland compact with a backhoe and its small enough to do a nice up close job. The only problem is that the only bucket he has is 19" wide and it makes a heck of a wide trench to have to fill it and takes forever to settle. To me the trench is the worst part of the job.

I considered the option of running another service from the pole underground to the polebarn - but I didn't want another separate electric bill, just the monthly service charge is bad enough. I don't plan on doing much inside the building with the service except a few lights and 110 receptacles.

Thanks you guys and Happy New Year.

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ted

01-02-2004 08:24:17

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Electrical service to tractor shed in reply to Fritz , 01-01-2004 17:49:26

Try to see if you can borrow or find/rent a trenching bucket. I know they are made for a Long 3pt backhoe. They have about a 6" bucket. If the drive is crushed rock you shouldn't have a problem crossing it. It'll settle back but will take awile.

Another option will be to price how much a ditchwintch (chain machine) would be per foot, or rent one for a day at a rental house? I think some may carry them now.

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