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A strange naive welding question: turning MIG into TIG

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Leon

08-04-2000 13:25:59




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So, I have this big 250 amp mig machine.

There are times when I'd love to be able to use the awesome power of this thing to just heat up some big chunk metal to cherry red for bending or pounding. The "proper" way, of course, is to heat with a torch.

I have tried heating large pieces with a torch to no avail. It seems that after a certain size, you just cannot get enough heat into the piece.

But when I weld a large piece at high current, it gets a large red area in a hurry.

So I was thinking- there ought to be a way to turn off the gas, pull the wire back so it doesn't feed, and replace the tip with some sort of carbon or tungsten electrode. Basically turning it into a Tig welder.

I know, I know, tig welders have different electrical characteristics than mig (constant current?), but I don't care- I just want to draw an arc for heating purposes.

Why is this not feasible? I KNOW that this idea will be shot down, I just don't know what the reasons will be ;)

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Leon

08-05-2000 19:06:27




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 Re: a strange naive welding question: turning MIG into TIG in reply to Leon, 08-04-2000 13:25:59  
Thanks for all the replies. That carbon torch affair sounds really great. I do have a rosebud tip, but it sure seems like I should be able to use this 250 amp power supply somehow. I don't have an AC stick machine at all, although I'd like to.

It seems to me that I just need a way to connect a carbon rod to my Mig torch without screwing anything up. Looks like a little engineering is in order here...

And Mark, your calcs are based on a 50 amp supply- my Millermatic will do 250 continuous (I think), so multiply your numbers * 5. I have short tanks, and I'd go through gas in a hurry to get that kind of heat.

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BFO

08-05-2000 19:50:08




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 Re: Re: a strange naive welding question: turning MIG into TIG in reply to Leon, 08-05-2000 19:06:27  
Leon, that's a nice little machine you got there but here's the numbers;
output: 250 Amps @ 28VDC, 40% duty cycle,
or, 200 Amps @ 28VDC, 60% duty cycle,
That means at your max setting, you can weld 4 minutes out of 10.

input: 44 Amps @ 230 Volts, or, 50 Amps @ 200 Volts
.
right from the Miller website. Check out the Dialarc 250 AC/DC stick machine.



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Steve U.S. Alloys

08-05-2000 10:56:13




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 Re: a strange naive welding question: turning MIG into TIG in reply to Leon, 08-04-2000 13:25:59  
Hi Leon,
Fred told you about the carbon arc torch. I have a quote for one laying on my desk right now for another gentleman that e-mailed me.

But, if you have a small AC machine, you can heat the heck out of something without a carbon arc torch. I mean if that's all you really want to do. Put one of the carbons in the electrode holder and crank up the amps. Long arc the carbon just enough to create a general heat and prevent a localized arc from overheating a smaller area. Keep it moving.

AC current will place half the heat in the carbon and half the heat in the metal. DC- would heat more metal and make the carbon last longer but carbons are dirt cheap. We sell them for about 25 cents each. That shouldn't break the bank.
Steve

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Fred OH

08-05-2000 05:16:19




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 Re: a strange naive welding question: turning MIG into TIG in reply to Leon, 08-04-2000 13:25:59  
Hi Leon from Fred.
Don't know about your mig machine but if you had a stick type welder you could hook up what is known as a carbon arc torch. I think they run best off of AC and require a couple of carbon electrodes about 1/4" x 6" long which are available if you look around. It has two leads attached to it that just clip onto the stinger and ground. A thumb rolling adjustment moves the carbons till they make an arc and away you go. You can braze, solder or heat and bend with them. Must use protective clothing with them or they'll toast you. (Another reason to have a stick type welder, but we won't toast that one again). Just don't go past the duty cycle on the welder. Most small Lincoln welders have a circle around the number 70 on the amp setting which means that it is 100% duty cycle at that setting and you can use it at that setting all day without fear of burning up the welder. Use that setting for arc torches or thawing out water pipes.
Another way to get lots of heat cheaply is to get one of those 500,000 BTU propane torches from Harbor Freight that they use to melt ice or burn weeds. Hook it to a twenty to a hundred pound propane cylinder and make the neighbors think you just fired up a jet in your garage. I guarantee you'll have enough preheat with this baby. Cost is in the neighborhood of $50 plus propane.
Last but not least is the common ol forge. You can make one if your cool, but you won't be long if you fire it up. Probably websites to give you hints on this project. A little coal and an old vacuum cleaner motor to give you some air blowing through the coal and lay the iron on top. This'll probably bring the neighbors too or the fire dept.
Anyway, these are methods that might help you or other board members to get smarter than the metal.
L8R----Fred

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MarkB

08-05-2000 05:10:59




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 Re: a strange naive welding question: turning MIG into TIG in reply to Leon, 08-04-2000 13:25:59  
I did see a contraption the other day that would convert an AC/DC stick welder to TIG. I think that it was made by Lincoln. The Lincoln factory rep was there, and he was reluctant to recommend it for anything more than a one-time use.

As for your original problem, let's work out the math:

Your MIG welder is probably limited to about 50 amps input at 230 volts, or 11,500 watts. 1 watt equals 3.38 btu/hr, so 11,500 watts is 38,870 btu/hr. At best, you'll get 50% of this heat to your work part, so you end up with about 20,000 btu/hr. This is equivalent to a small rosebud torch tip. Go buy the biggest torch tip that you can get. Just remember to tell the salesman how big your acetylene tank is; the bigger the tank, the bigger the torch you can use. (You don't want to draw down more than 1/7 of the tank's capacity per hour, lest the acetylene become "unstable".)

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Fred OH

08-05-2000 05:44:31




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 Re: Re: a strange naive welding question: turning MIG into TIG in reply to MarkB, 08-05-2000 05:10:59  
Mark, that contraption you referred to is called a high frequency generator. When using AC (as in welding aluminum with the TIG), the cycles per second or Hertz coming in is 60. The high frequency generator inputs the 60 cycle and outputs around 20,000 cycles per second making the AC real smooth for welding but the byproduct of this is that this frequency would be called RF or radio frequencies. Supposedly plays havoc with the neighbors tv or opens garage doors and the like. Just have to ground it and adjust the points right so as to minimize interference. It also works with stick welding. (Another reason to have a stick welder but we won't toast that one again, we'll just let the dummies buy their MIG welders and be happy). What you don't know won't hurt you, will it? L8R----Fred

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Jiff

08-05-2000 01:29:25




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 Re: a strange naive welding question: turning MIG into TIG in reply to Leon, 08-04-2000 13:25:59  
Not that this answers your question, but to put lots of heat into a piece of metal with a torch, you need to get a rosebud tip.



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