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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

'Nother Dumb Insulation Question

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Allan

12-12-2003 04:17:18




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Now, I've got a tiny delima.

Yesterday, while I was off buying a load of insulation at one lumber yard, the contractor was doing the same thing at another. Long story short, I've got insulation running out my ears around here.

My first initial knee-jerk reaction was to take back one load, but after reading all the responses here, I got to thinking about the roof insulation:

How dumb would it be to insulate the roof beams with a layer of 3 1/2" bats and then also go back and insulate the rafters too with an additional layer of 6 1/2" rolled? (You can probably tell who bought what here) :>)

Does this make any sense, or shall I just take back one load? This is in western Nebraska where a -20 degree night is a cold night. Would this be beneficial in terms of heating cost savings?

Also, the garage is attached and the internal doorway to the house is just off our office spaces.

Thanks for all your help,

Allan

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deano in duluth

12-15-2003 11:32:04




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 Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Allan, 12-12-2003 04:17:18  
i did not take time to read everything..but if you do not use some sort of vapor barrier, your windows will rot, and your sheetrock will turn to mush.



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Scott Green

12-13-2003 08:47:52




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 Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Allan, 12-12-2003 04:17:18  
Allen , I've been in the siding , insulation , ventilation business all my life. Insulating theries have evolved over time. Man thinks he is quite the know it all. Fact is , he is just learning himself , how to properly insulate. Here's what you need to do: Take a good look at a mouse. They have been insulating for as long back as any of us can remember. The only difference is that man wants windows. A mouse never builds his nest out in the wheather. It is always under a roof of some sort. A mouse never puts vapor barriors in the walls/ceilings of his nest. And a mouse never builds his nest in the water. It is built high and dry. Here is what you want: at least 6 inches of kraft face fiberglass insulation in the walls(it will not settle like blown in cellulose). At least 12 inches of either fiberglass , or blown in cellulose insulation in the attic. I recommend cellulose. The only bad part about cellulose is that it's more of a mess , should you have to do any ceiling repairs. The air needs to flow through the attic , taking out any moisture. This is why you should not put any moisture barrior in the ceiling. The moisture comes from within the house. You want it to go out. Use plenty of soffit vents , along with some kind of roof vents. Again , look at the mouse; Plenty of insulation , with lots of air flowing around the nest. As time goes on , man continues to fine tune his insulation theries. As his insulation theries improve , it looks more and more like a mouse nest. Nature has been insulating long before man.

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wdTom

12-13-2003 19:47:34




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 Re: Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Scott Green, 12-13-2003 08:47:52  
I will agree with most of the information in your post and it is well put. The only point I would disagree with is the no vapor barrier in the ceiling. You are right, you want to get rid of moisture, you don't want to get rid of it through the insulation though. It can condense and freeze when it hits the cold. If you want to increase the air flow through the house open a window or install a vent for the purpose. I believe there are heat exchangers to allow you to recover some of the heat lost in purposely exhausted air. Or you can crack a window now and then.It is always easier to let some fresh air in and stale air out of a tight house than to try and deal with a drafty one.

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wdTom

12-14-2003 18:09:31




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 Re: Re: Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to wdTom, 12-13-2003 19:47:34  
Another thing that nobody has mentioned here in this discussion is this. You need to do a good job of fitting the fiberglass to the cavaity or it won't work the way you want it too. If yous stuff it in it compress the insulation and reduces the air spaces in it which reduce the insulation value. If you leave a gap at the sides or ends the cold will be able to get around where the gap is and greatly reduce the efficiency of the job. The insulation should be precisly cut, maybe 1/2 to a max of 1" inch larger than the opening it is to go in and carefully placed and stapled. I have seen "insulation contractors" insall it FAST. But on looking the job over you wouldn't want in in your house. It takes time to do the job right. And you can't reasonably go back later and correct a poor job. It is a job that has to be done right the first time or it will forever be a poor job and cost you money. I believe a good # 1/2" r-11 job will out perform a poor 6" r-19 any day. And if you do a good job and use a lot, well now you are talking.

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Scott Green

12-14-2003 01:56:45




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 Re: Re: Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to wdTom, 12-13-2003 19:47:34  
Has anyone ever seen a frozen mouse nest??? Moisture does come from the mouse. Like one of the other post had mentioned , they have done away with moisture barriers in his area. I can't remember the last time I had seen vaper barriers installed. I too would say at least 15 years. Read the post from Butcher. Moisture barriers are one of mans old insulation theries. That was back before they even thought of ventilation. They now realize that it was a ventilation problem , not a moisture barrier problem. I'm not saying that installing a moisture barrier is bad. With proper ventilation , it's just not necessary. Again , look at the mouse.

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dk

12-14-2003 06:20:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Scott Green, 12-14-2003 01:56:45  
scott green

Where do you live?
How many houses a year to you build?
Do you even have a contractors license?
Have you ever read a code book for your area?
Do you know how to caculate roof venting?
What is the recomended R value for walls and roofs in your area?

I am just trying to understand where you get your information.



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Scott Green

12-14-2003 07:59:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Questi in reply to dk, 12-14-2003 06:20:40  
Like I said in my earlyer post , I have done this all my working life. I know what I'm talking about. have insulated well over 500 hundred houses. Don't keep tract any more. Couldn't if I tried. Yes to your other questions. Seen many theries , and ideas. As they evolve , they look more and more like the mouse nest.I do believe the insulation thery is now down to a science. Now what they are doing is playing around with ideas for wind/drafts , etc.. EXAMPLE: look at the tyvek house wrapp. Very good stuff. Code is 6" in sidewalls , 12 in attic. But , useing tyvek and good windows , I do know of someone who is useing 6" walls in the first floor , and 4" walls in the second floor. It passes code.

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john

12-14-2003 08:28:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Qu in reply to Scott Green, 12-14-2003 07:59:23  
While I can follow the idea you are trying to get across I would say the main problem with your post is

You can not teach a old dog new tricks!!!!! !!!
And I have seen many times some one tell me this new fangle way is better only to say years later we were wrong and we had it right the first time.

Seems I even remember people talking about installing the vapor barrier on the outside in the deep south. The heated area is most times on the outside down here.

The other question I would have is a mouse builds a new nest every year. My home would last a year with no vapor barrier. (EASY) but with moisture attacking it year after year for 30 years is my insulation going to last. Wet insulation is ruined insulation and not easly replaced.

Some times using the tryed and true method is best and leaving the expermints to others is the best advise.

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Jeff

12-13-2003 12:43:25




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 Re: Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Scott Green, 12-13-2003 08:47:52  
Thats gotta be one of the best posts I've ever read...



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DK-MN

12-12-2003 14:27:53




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 Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Allan, 12-12-2003 04:17:18  
I love this site.
As a carpenter in Minnesota, this is how we do it. Under the trusses (between ceiling sheet rock and trusses or rafters) 6 mil poly with all seems taped, R-19 unfaced laid between the trusses or rafters. Another R-38 blown in on top of that. Proper vents with wind bocks. This would assume soffit venting with either ridge, roof, wirly birds etc... Goooood luck with your project. Just courious to find out what you do!!!

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Butcher

12-12-2003 08:00:04




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 Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Allan, 12-12-2003 04:17:18  
Now I am really going to confuse you. As an x builder/contactor, I would not recomend using a vapor barrier in the ceiling. Here in Iowa we havent been doing that for at least 15 years. I think if you check with insulation mfgs. they would tell you the same thing. In fact, in the last 4 or 5 years they have even been doing away with vapor barrier on sidewalls. Construction materials and methods have inproved to the point were stuctures are to tight. causing moisture to be trapped inside and all kinds of problems down the road.
Oh, I would still recomend roof vents.
Good luck.

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G.King

12-12-2003 07:38:08




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 Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Allan, 12-12-2003 04:17:18  
Take it back an trade for unfaced.----- -- Just Added 2 layers to our attic did not have trusses but over the inside walls it is well braced just cut ,around them got a good fit it did take a lttle more time on that layer.



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RWK in WI

12-12-2003 06:55:25




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 Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Allan, 12-12-2003 04:17:18  
Something the other posts have missed is the vapor barrier - foil or kraft paper or vinal. You only want this on the first layer closest to the heated side. This keeps moisture from the heated area from getting into the insulation. If you add a second layer and it has vapor barier you trap moisture in the insulation and reduce its effectiveness and can cause mold and rot. It is a pain to have to rip the insulation from vapor barrier - been there / done that - but it can be done if you have to.

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buck

12-12-2003 06:55:06




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 Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Allan, 12-12-2003 04:17:18  

One potential problem here. If the insulation if the faced type you do not want to place one over the other with the face on it. This will place a moisture barrier between the two layers which will give you problems down the road.If this should be the case, my suggestion would be to return the insulation and get thicker insulaton that can be installed in one layer. While the thickness of the insulation is beneficial (more is better so to say) the actual installation is just as important so take care in this area.

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john

12-12-2003 06:58:47




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 Re: Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to buck, 12-12-2003 06:55:06  
Thanks for adding this.....
Should have thought to add this myself!!!!! !!



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Allan

12-12-2003 07:04:16




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 Re: Re: Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to john, 12-12-2003 06:58:47  
Hey Guys!

Hang with me; don't hang up the phone... :>)

Yes both are the paper faced type. Glad you said something about the barrier thing.

Now, how about if I lay the first layer fiber up and the second layer fiber down? Would't this give me a total insulation factor between the two paper faces?

Follow me?

Thanks for your help; so glad I asked.

Allan



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john

12-12-2003 07:24:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Allan, 12-12-2003 07:04:16  
NO NO NO!!!!! putting the face on the top would do the same thing to the entire thickness of insulation as putting it right side up would do to the bottom half of insulation. TRAP MOISTURE IN INSULATION!!!!!
You want nothing on top so that moisture can evaporate away from insulation. The vapor barrier is to keep moisture from heated area from getting to insulation.
AS other post said you can tear barrier off top insulation but that is a large pain. Or you can return and buy insulation with no vapor barrier installed.

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buck

12-12-2003 07:40:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Questi in reply to john , 12-12-2003 07:24:36  

You are correct



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Mac

12-12-2003 06:48:23




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 Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Allan, 12-12-2003 04:17:18  
I must be missing something here. I would insulate right above the ceiling and not be concered about the rafters. If you have perforated soffit, dont cover that part totally. It needs to breath.



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john

12-12-2003 05:41:18




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 Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Allan, 12-12-2003 04:17:18  
Hope this makes sense. From your discription I assume you have a celing. Celing joist run from top of wall to top of other wall. Roof rafters run from top of wall to peak in roof.

Well in my mind that would be messing up!!!!!
wouldn't the eave soffit be letting the cold air in below the roof rafters. The place to insulate is the celing joist. Now I would NOT take back the insulation if you can afford it. (guess you can you bought it) What I would do is lay the Insulation in the celing joist then come back and lay a second layer at 90 degrees to the first layer.

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Allan

12-12-2003 06:08:51




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 Re: Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to john, 12-12-2003 05:41:18  
John,

Thanks for the reply.

Sorry for my wrong nomemclature description; I'm just no carpenter.

I see your point, but now I'm thinking about the truss bracing. It is a 28' span across this thing and has a lot of bracing involved in the construction of the trusses.

But, do you still think it would be better to cut the short pieces where necessary (between the bracing) & run the upper layer just above the ceiling and at a 90 degree angle?

Would I have to tack this upper layer in place or could I just lay it in there? Then, just bring the lower layer up underneath it and tack between the two (joists)?

Allan

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john

12-12-2003 06:47:27




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 Re: Re: Re: 'Nother Dumb Insulation Question in reply to Allan, 12-12-2003 06:08:51  
OH!!!!! you have trusses...
Yes I can see where that would make it hard to lay insulation in the wrong direction.
So let me put it this way... The reason for laying in crossing directions is to make sure you cover every spot. One way misses but other way catches it.
You will have to decide how much area you have to work with and how much you are willing to mess with it to get the extra coverage.You can cut and fit around bracing or I think if you even run in same dirrection that would be better than just one layer. MOST of your heat is lost through the celing.
The way it is done in a non truss roof is to tack up the pieces between the joist then nail the sheet rock on the under side. Then you get in attic and spread out another layer on top of that. This is why some use a spray in for the cover coat. You do not have to craul in every nook and cranny you just spray it in.
Since you probley have a steeper roof than we do you may have enough room to get in attic. I do not know.

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