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overhead welding

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tod wagner

11-16-2003 17:49:28




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I've got a Lincoln 225 AC welder and need to do some overhead welding. What's the best stick to use - 6011? 7018? or ??? What about for vertical welding? I've still got years of learning (and practice) ahead of me. Thanks!




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mj

11-20-2003 18:02:32




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 Re: overhead welding in reply to tod wagner, 11-16-2003 17:49:28  
6011...in and out motion.



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Fred OH

11-18-2003 07:11:33




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 Re: overhead welding in reply to tod wagner, 11-16-2003 17:49:28  
One thing that hasn't been mentioned here while we're mixing different rods and methods is the fact that 7018 is recommended for the cold drawn or cold rolled type steels and the low alloy type and maybe cast steels. I think that the good book refers to underbead cracking as a result of using the wrong rod. Maybe T_Bone can give a speech on it as it is a factor...but he forgot too...well, not really...he just concentrated on proceedure. Fred OH

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T_Bone

11-17-2003 14:32:58




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 Re: overhead welding in reply to tod wagner, 11-16-2003 17:49:28  
Hi Tod,

I sniped some of my previous thoughts on vertical and overhead welding. HTH

*****************************************
Ovehead weldments have a greater tendency to have both slag and porosity inclusions. As an AWS inspector I have seen alot of this and started watching welders during certification tests and found that is from the welder trying to hurry too much as his mindset is the puddle is going to fall if he goes too slow. A overhead weld should be made just like a flat weld with a very slight increase in electrode speed.

Vertical up welds are best made with good consentration on the molten puddle. This can best be observed welding in the flat position. The weld puddle will be very shinny and will have some swriling action within the molten puddle. The slag looks dull and lumpy will roll to the back of the weld puddle as the puddle moves forward. As the weld puddle forward speed slows the slag will recombine with molten puddle causing the puddle to splatter and gather inclusions and encase the electrode tip causing the electrode to stick to the base metal. The weld puddle width should be about 2 times the electrode diameter. AWS code calls the maxmium weave bead width of 8 times the electrode diameter in any position as any more width than this will cause slag inclusions because the slag cools too much before the electrode returns to deposit more weld.

*************************************************

Vertical up welding is fairly easy to do once you get the hang of it. Electrode angle pays a very important roll, about 5* to 10* down from horizontal, 0* works best sometimes, and you need your head below the rod to see the weld puddle with a close arc length and a slightly faster travel speed.

Vertical down welds are allowed by code and are limited to 2" in length on fillet welds but most welds fail when ran verticle down as it's very easy to trap slag with in the molten puddle. I only recomend very experienced welders use vertical down. Learn verticle up first!

Now most welders watch the "slag" in the molten puddle and not the molten puddle it's self and that causes the molten puddle to fall or the weld puddle will slump before the welder moves the rod upward. Thats why we teach you to weld flat first so you can reconize the weld puddle from the slag. If you can see the difference in the weld puddle and the slag, then do not let the slag take your attenion away from the motlen puddle in the vertical position like it does to most weldors.

A vertical weave bead is made by starting a weld puddle then moving horzontial, 8 rod diameters max, then pause slightly to deposit more weld, move up 1/2 rod diameter, then back to the starting point. The horizontal move should be fairly fast so if the weld slumps in the center then your moving too slow. If the ends are under cut then your not pausing long enough at the corners. Take a stratch awl making two vertical lines will help you keep the weld straight and uniform width.

The 8 times the rod diameter maximum is so the slag does not cool before you return to deposit more metal.

My method of teaching is to have the welder try to move too fast, too slow, long arc length, short arc length, rod angle at 45*, at 5*, too many amps, too low of amps, etc: and pay close attention to the changes each makes in the weld. I reverse teach, "what makes a bad weld". If you know what causes a bad weld then you will know how to correct it when you make that mistake.

This is also where your plastic welding lens will fail you the most. You now have two weld puddles due to the distortion of the plastic lens. Which one is the true weld puddle?

Use only a all glass lens.

T_Bone

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Robert

11-17-2003 20:41:38




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 Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to T_Bone, 11-17-2003 14:32:58  
Well written T Bone!



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JOHN (LA)

11-17-2003 15:57:35




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 Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to T_Bone, 11-17-2003 14:32:58  
T_BONE While I am not one to get into this since I just know enough to get by and not enough to teach but I would like to ask a question that no one has touched on and I think should be brought up.
Every one here has talked about the differant rods but no one has told the differance. Welding is done in differant ways becaused of the differant rods used. IE; low hyd. 70xx or mild steel 60xx. In fact I think your post is on 70xx rods.
With 70xx rods you can stay in the puddle even up hill. With 60xx rods you need to walk up the side of the metal to allow to puddle to cool some then come back for next bead.
In the class I took we were taught mild steel 60xx in up hill. And I agree all should use up hill unless you are very good.

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T_Bone

11-17-2003 17:33:47




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 Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to JOHN (LA), 11-17-2003 15:57:35  
Hi John,

My pervious post, can be used with any electrode type.

Yes I do agree that some electrode coatings in some applications are harder to lay than others. That comes with experience of knowing when to use what rod on a pictular joint or with different metals.

You can also stay in the puddle with 60xx electrodes with 6010 being more responsive in 75% of the applications than 6011 and with 6013 dragging the tail end of the group.

Where I like to use 6011 vs 6010 is when welding galvanized metal. 6011 will preclean better than 6010 in this application. I have used 6010 DCEN tho with good results. Here, I use the back step techinque alot. Another techinque is using over-lay circles. They all have there place.

In a mild steel joint, it's hard to beat 6010 DCEN in any postion. Yes, sometimes I use a back step or weave method but I also use a straight lay in depending on joint design.

One thing that I see posted alot here is people thinking with 6011 they do not need to preclean the joint of grease, scale, rust or paint. This welding method is a sure way to have a weld fail.

Yes there is times when I don't remove scale. Example would be skip welding thinn SM to angle iron/tubing. Here were not in a critical weld zone as were just trying to support the skin on a frame with a lite weld to replace what a typical screw would hold.

T_Bone

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Chris-se-ILL

11-17-2003 11:03:32




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 Re: overhead welding in reply to tod wagner, 11-16-2003 17:49:28  
If it were me I would use the 6011 rod (with a slightly lowered amperage)!

I know that some here say to use the 7014 or 7018. If you can hold the metal from pooling and dropping off your weld (most folks can't)... then use the 70** rods. But all the times I have tried using them for OH or Vert. welding I have had less than acceptable welds... even with lowered amperage the 70** rods run and make messy welds! I use a Lincoln Welder (AC;DC;DC-) and have tried using both positive and negetive for OH and Vert. welding with the 70** rods... I still did not like them for anything but flat clean welds! They may be a slightly higher strength rod... BUT, if you cannot keep the metal in the weld (and make a decent weld)... then what good is the little extra tensile strength over the 6011 rod (which to me, makes a more even OH weld)?

It takes a lot of practice to get onto OH or Vert. welding. Try welding in short welds... 1 inch welds at a time. Also make sure that the weld area is cleaned of ALL slag if you need to re-weld the area.

Just my opinions!

Just jump in and practice on some scrap to SEE FOR YOURSELF what works. Practice, practice, practice!!! Let us know what you determine.

Good Luck!

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Bill 52 8n

11-17-2003 12:50:32




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 Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to Chris-se-ILL, 11-17-2003 11:03:32  
Gimmie a 7018 over a 6010 or 6011 for vertical anyday. When you weld vertical, your weld will not be as small as a flat weld with either rod becasue you cant just drag it up the joint like you can flat (assuming 1/8" rods). You have to use a motion with the rod. I prefer a "J" motion. You go across the weld pool then move up the plate (1/4"), then back across the weld pool pausing on each side to let it burn in. Whipping the rod ahead of the weld pull lets the flux set and hold the molten metal in place. 7018 can be used with ac, it works nice for horizontal welds. I think 70XX series rods are nicer for overhead because it has a less violent arc which means less molten metal falling and landing on your neck and ears.

Bill

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Chris-se-ILL

11-17-2003 18:55:08




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 Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to Bill 52 8n, 11-17-2003 12:50:32  
Glad it works for ya Bill... it just doesn't work for me! 6011's work great for me on OH and Vert. welds and they make nice welds... so I'll stick with what works for me. Thanks anyway!



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Robert

11-17-2003 20:23:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to Chris-se-ILL, 11-17-2003 18:55:08  
Chris your whole problem is you really don`t know how to weld. I`m not trying to be mean but 7018 will about run itself. 60s rod is a very good choice to weld broken farm junk as you run into rust paint ect.



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Chris-se-ILL

11-17-2003 21:06:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to Robert, 11-17-2003 20:23:16  
I guess your right. I don't know how to weld, so I will just shut up about it! Do it however it works for you, I don't care.... I'll do it my way (the way I was taught, and it has worked well for 30+ years), because it works for me! The guy asked for opinions and advice. I gave mine. You gave yours. You all are the experts... so mine is of no consequence!

Later!



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Robert

11-17-2003 21:32:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to Chris-se-ILL, 11-17-2003 21:06:07  
I just wanted you to keep a open mind about other rods, your 60xx works fine for you and me but in some places 70xx is much better.



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Chris-se-ILL

11-18-2003 07:04:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to Robert, 11-17-2003 21:32:36  
I "do know" that there are situations where 70** rods work better than 60** rods. That is why I keep 7014's and 7018's, each in stock in at least 3 sizes. I also keep 6011's and 6013's, in 3 sizes, in stock too. There too, I also keep rods for cast, stainless and aluminum. Furthermore, I keep brazing and oxy/acet rods in stock in my shop (these are also in various sizes... coated and uncoated).

I use each rod according to the job requirements and materials being welded. Because I state, what "works for me" in a certain situation, and under certain conditions.... does not invalidate what works for others, nor negate anyone else's operational proceedures.

What works for me, are just my opinions and observations... concerning the original application as stated in the opening post!

Take my advice or leave it, people on a forum get what they pay for... free advice!

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Robert

11-18-2003 15:14:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to Chris-se-ILL, 11-18-2003 07:04:47  
You have a very big chip on your shoulder for some reason Chris, it may have something to do with your rod size.



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Chris-se-ILL

11-18-2003 20:29:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: overhead weldi in reply to Robert, 11-18-2003 15:14:46  
Your first post to me... you have to tell me "what my problem is" when all I did was give the guy some advice (my opinions).

Now after I have explained to you and anyone else that wants to read this thread why I use the 6011's for OH and Vert. welding (because it works), you have to make "backhanded personal snide remarks." That is just boorish and immature behavior!!! I will not stoop to your level of immaturity!

Don't even bother replying to any more of my posts again... because I will not be reading them!!!

Good day sir!

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Al W.

11-20-2003 23:54:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: overhead w in reply to Chris-se-ILL, 11-18-2003 20:29:52  
My sentiments also (pretty childish remarks above if ya ask me)and in my opinion should not be allowed in a forum like this. Good day to you also sir :)



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Robert

11-17-2003 14:02:55




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 Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to Bill 52 8n, 11-17-2003 12:50:32  
Bill, Your words are about as true as it gets!



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KX

11-17-2003 08:44:16




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 Re: overhead welding in reply to tod wagner, 11-16-2003 17:49:28  
I always use 6011 with either DC or AC machine. I just tend to feel like I can control the weld puddle better and it seems to form better for me. With 7018, the weld puddle seems to be more runny and less controllable. I can usually get the same penetration and bead overhead, vertical or flat. I do turn the heat down slightly when welding overhead though. That is just my experience and I know that every one has different learned ways and beliefs. I also weld vertical DOWN. I welded a big corral/loading chute/pen at my place from drill stem pipe and sucker rod and have never had to repair a break, not one. I fit it as best I could and TRIED to make every weld 100% water proof and I have seen no evidence in 5 years that any piece of pipe is taking water. One thing I would share, when welding overhead wear earplugs or a full hood. I took a piece of hot slag in a ear once and believe me it was the most unpleasant experience of my life. Felt like it was gonna burn through the other side.

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old

11-16-2003 18:13:57




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 Re: overhead welding in reply to tod wagner, 11-16-2003 17:49:28  
7018 is more of a DC rod then AC, I'd use 7014 it's a good all round round with higher strenth then 6011.
The 7018 can be used with Ac but its hard to start and hard to keep an arc.
7014 is made for AC welding and works almost in any position.
Hope this helps



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KEG

11-17-2003 06:12:00




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 Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to old, 11-16-2003 18:13:57  
I, too, need help in this area. Just did my first vertical welds this weekends and had lots of problems with keeping the molten pool from just falling off the piece. I tried to hit the arc, move the arc back to pre-warm the metal, then move in to drop metal. Tried other ways, moved top to bottom and bottom to top. No method seemed to provide a weld that I felt was strong. Don't really care about looks.

KEG
(tod -thanks for letting me jump in)

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bill strickland

11-17-2003 08:43:23




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 Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to KEG, 11-17-2003 06:12:00  
Keg, Do vertical with an agressive approach. Hold the rod with tip up at a 80 degree angle against the work and dont dally around. The molten metal can be held somewhat above and toward the work by the arc on the outer edge, and by the work on the other two sides. Keep your rod almost in the puddle and move rapidly upward with a small weaving motion from side to side. A magnetic attraction is created by the arc that helps hold the molten metal to the work as it does in overhead work if you dont stay so long that the weight overcomes it. Vertical is the toughest to do but its not too difficult if you use the proper technique. Id advise taking a welding night class at your vocational school if there is one near you. They are great places.

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Alvin n Ms.

11-17-2003 07:14:33




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 Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to KEG, 11-17-2003 06:12:00  
I am not a real welder but I have been struggling to do my work for 30 years. The 7014 is a contact rod that anyone can weld with, doing flat welding anyways, after you strike the arc just hold the rod to the seam and it will actually move back when its time. The pros rarely use 7014s, (that I know anyway) I don't believe it is near as strong as the 7018s. I get the best results from 7018s when 6011s are reccomended. It takes an artist to do decent vertical, and overhead,welding, and its like playing a piano, you have got to stay in practice to be any good at it, with ordinary cracker box welders anyhow. I have met lots of people that claimed to be a welders, a few of them are. Keep in mind there is lots of flat welding to be done on mild steel. If you go around machine shops you will see they have thousands of dollars worth of welding apparatus, and use DC welders and reverse the polarity for overhead welding. I don't believe anyone knows eyerything about welding. Goodluck

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old

11-17-2003 07:24:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to Alvin n Ms., 11-17-2003 07:14:33  
Both the 7018 and 7014 are 70,000 lbs rod but the 7018 is for DC welding. And as far as the pros most of them use DC welder so thats the reason why they use the 7018. Most of use that weld to keep things going only have AC welders. By the way the guy that taught me about welding did it as a Pro. and also taught welding in a large school for the Pro.
Also the 6011 rod is a 60,000lbs rod so it isn't as strong as the 7014, its what I would call a novice rod. By the way I'm a retired welder, hope this explains some things

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Robert

11-17-2003 20:39:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to old, 11-17-2003 07:24:39  
They make 7018 rod for AC also. I won`t call myself a pro but I am a Union Journeyman Ironworker certified unlimted 6G papers. I may not be able to get all the fancy talk typed but I can lay the beads down in any position : )



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old

11-18-2003 05:53:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to Robert, 11-17-2003 20:39:36  
Yes I know they make 7018 AC od but its hard tp work with that is why I said to use 7014 its much easyer to use and has the same rateing PSI wise.



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Alvin n Ms.

11-19-2003 08:56:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to old, 11-18-2003 05:53:05  
I consider a 7014 to be a sissies rod, even I can burn one. When I weld with 6011s it looks like where a chicken used the john. I saw a small slender girl just East of Houston, about 10 years ago, and her boss said he would put her welding up against anyone in Texas. How would you guys like to lay a bead to compare with hers?



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Bill 52 8n

11-19-2003 16:30:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: overhead welding in reply to Alvin n Ms., 11-19-2003 08:56:53  
I would love to!! Does she ride quads and fish too? There's a few girls in my weld shop at school that have the same 6G pipe certification I have. None of them are small or slender though lol.

Bill



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Alvin n Ms.

11-19-2003 18:20:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: overhead weldi in reply to Bill 52 8n, 11-19-2003 16:30:09  
Maybe someone from Channelview, or east Houston will see this post and tell you how good that girl is at welding. Her boss told me she was by far the best welder in his crew and he had a rather large crew.



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