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Underground short.

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Alvin n Ms.

11-13-2003 09:12:04

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Is there anyway to find where a wire is shorted, underground? Thanks alv

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kyhayman

11-15-2003 05:31:41

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Re: Underground short. in reply to Alvin n Ms., 11-13-2003 09:12:04

I just had this problem. Got triplex plus an insulated copper for neutral buried to the barn. Evidentally a rock cut both hots. I tried to find it but ran out of patience. It was $200 to put in conduit (first wire wasnt), UAV cable, and get the ditch dug (250'). Guy up the road drives a truck for an electrical contractor, I stopped and asked him if he had a piece of UAV 4 in his left overs. He gave me the UAV 2 and the conduit for $100 and a 24 pack of Bud. Ditch witch was .40/ft

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Bob

11-14-2003 00:47:06

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Re: Underground short. in reply to Alvin n Ms., 11-13-2003 09:12:04

In my experience 75% of the time damage is within 5 feet or so of one of the ends, or "risers", where the wires enter or leave the ground. It might be worth digging up the ends and checking. POWER OFF for SAFETY!!!

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T_Bone

11-13-2003 23:56:07

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Re: Underground short. in reply to Alvin n Ms., 11-13-2003 09:12:04

Hi alvin,

Disconnect the wires at both ends, VERY IMPORTANT.
No AC high voltage current is needed nor WANTED, nor do the wires need normal earth gound.

Use a auto battery, 6v or 12v, and hook the positive to the wire under question and the negitive to a ground rod driven (about 2ft long) into the ground a short distance away from the battery.

Take two 1/8" (No12 CU wire works) x 36" copper/steel rods and bend 4" 90 degrees at one end.

Hold the 4" piece in your fists tightly, both hands about 12" apart. Then walk the wire. The witching rods will cross in a "X" when your over the wire and uncross when your not.

When you find the break or ground, then approch from the side several times to pin point the exact location.

The small 12vdc current flow makes the wires cross because of magnetic eddy currents.

The current will not flow thru the wire at the short or break in the wire.

Works for finding water/sewer pipes too.

T_Bone

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chris

11-13-2003 18:17:19

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Re: Underground short. in reply to Alvin n Ms., 11-13-2003 09:12:04

Hook one end of bad wire to spark plug wire off vehicle start vehicle and take am radio tune where you can here the pop and you can fallow wire close to where the break is.

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John K

11-16-2003 23:25:18

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Re: Re: Underground short. in reply to chris, 11-13-2003 18:17:19

I wont say that it wont work, but you could be creating more problems. Years back, we installed a bunch of 600 volt rated wire rated for direct burial, someone decided to check the cable with a megohm meter that produced over 1000 volts. On the wires tested, fualts showed up after a short time. It seems that the cables in question had many pin holes in the insulation by using the high voltage test equip. The high voltage was more than the rating of the wire and caused pin holes in the insulation which in turn started corossion problems.

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RogeR

11-14-2003 07:08:22

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Re: Re: Underground short. in reply to chris, 11-13-2003 18:17:19

Chris;
The original poster referred to a 'short'. Your reply mentions a 'break'. Will the radio trick work if the wires are shorted together or to ground?
Thanks,
Roger

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john nelson

11-13-2003 17:38:52

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Re: Underground short. in reply to Alvin n Ms., 11-13-2003 09:12:04

Yes, most utility companys have them. Some are called thumpers because they send pulses along the wire. Some local power companys will send out their truck to help you, mine does. Also a 'hound dog' locater will get pretty close. John

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11-13-2003 15:47:07

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Re: Underground short. in reply to Alvin n Ms., 11-13-2003 09:12:04

Depending on the details of the wire and the nature of the short, you might be able to get close to it by measuring resistance. You'd go to one end and measure between the shorted wires.

If you know the resistance of the wire (20gauge is about 10 ohms / thousand feet) then you can figure the distance to the short.

10 ohms measured resistance would be 500 ft away (500 to the short and 500 back is 1000 feet total). If its heavier wire like 10gauge then its going to be trickier to measure resistance with enough precision. It can still be done but its a bit more trouble than just hooking up a VOM.

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Bob G

11-13-2003 11:13:12

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Re: Underground short. in reply to Alvin n Ms., 11-13-2003 09:12:04

Alvin,

My Mom and Stepfather had an underground wire short out from the meter to the house. They call the power company and they came out and told them exactly where the short was. They wouldn't fix it because it was after the meter, but told them exactly where it was.

Bob

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Errin OH

11-13-2003 10:35:44

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Re: Underground short. in reply to Alvin n Ms., 11-13-2003 09:12:04

Short answer - yes

Little more info - Takes a special piece of equipment.

Here's the deal - Don't have it any more but bout 15 years ago I was turn on to a little box that would send a signal down one wire and read it comming back on the other. Dat box did a little math and calculated the distance to fault (short, open etc..). We used them to trace phone lines and such in big wharehouses. Know anyone who works for the phone co?

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Fawteen

11-13-2003 15:29:52

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Re: Re: Underground short. in reply to Errin OH, 11-13-2003 10:35:44

That gizmo is called a Time Domain Reflectometer, and the price of one of them jewels would buckle yer knees.

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Van

11-13-2003 20:38:15

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Re: Re: Re: Underground short. in reply to Fawteen, 11-13-2003 15:29:52

Fawteen, Ah yes the old TDR trick! And yep the price will stop your heart. LOL

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Alvin n Ms.

11-14-2003 07:06:35

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Underground short. in reply to Van, 11-13-2003 20:38:15

Thanks guys, for all the information. The phone co was out here locating under ground lines, and I tried to get him to help locate it, but he said his machine was not a ground fault and it had to be a ground fault to work. I feel like he was just putting me on, seems like he could have. I bought an AC sensor (Santronics) and dug down to the cable where I thought the short could be and got no reading at all. There is three wires and I well know that one of them is hot. The sensor works well elsewhere.

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RogeR

11-14-2003 07:15:42

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Underground short. in reply to Alvin n Ms., 11-14-2003 07:06:35

Alvin;
Have you tried the T-Bone method? That sounds like it might be the ticket. I've got a similar situation (mine's a dead short; won't energize) and I think I'll give the DCV/witching rods a go- maybe this week end, weather permitting.
Keep us posted on your solution and I'll do likewise.
Thanks,
Roger

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Alvin n Ms.

11-14-2003 07:30:50

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Underground short. in reply to RogeR, 11-14-2003 07:15:42

I've just got to try that. If it works I will feel like Houdinnie.

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Bob

11-14-2003 15:49:17

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Underground short. in reply to Alvin n Ms., 11-14-2003 07:30:50

Dead?

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Alvin n Ms.

11-14-2003 16:16:23

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Underground short. in reply to Bob, 11-14-2003 15:49:17

His legend lives on, anyway I have been out trying some witching. I don't seem to have enough talent to that either. I probably need very sensitive feelings about like a Nashville guitar player.

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Ray,IN

11-15-2003 21:08:21

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Underground sh in reply to Alvin n Ms., 11-14-2003 16:16:23

Divining does work, I don't know how but it does. I've seen it work to find water, iron pipe, electric wires, underground. Find someone local that knows how and ask for help.

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