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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

odd brands

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EIL

10-30-2003 19:11:52




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I know of a few brands of tools that I don't see in stores but I see a lot of them lying around shops. One brand is p&c. I see a lot of these. What ever happened to this brand. Were they good tools? Also, another brand is sparta, their wrenches look just like craftsman wrenches. Other brands are gray canada, walden, and yet still more p&c. I would like to hear what everyone has to say about these tool brands. It looks like p&c at one time was the big dog in the tool market.

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Bus Driver

11-04-2003 09:55:13




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 Re: odd brands in reply to EIL, 10-30-2003 19:11:52  
Few will likely see this thread since it has moved down the list, but I noticed today that my toolbox has some Barcalo Buffalo wrenches. Not pretty nor nicely finished, but sturdy and strong. USA made and likely many years old.



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Fred OH

11-03-2003 08:10:03




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 Re: odd brands in reply to EIL, 10-30-2003 19:11:52  
Being that we're mentioning old tool names...there used to be a forging plant in Greenfield, Ohio that made wrenches under the name of Mecto. I know they made a full line of wrenches, screwdrivers and specialty stuff and tools with other companies names on them, like John Deere etc. They were eventually sold into the K-D line and then moved to somewhere near Charleston, SC. Just out of curosity, I wonder if anyone has any of these Mecto tools around? They were of decent quality and I have owned several. Never broke one...but after several years got a little chrome peel. They made them for years...so there should be some out there in someones toolbox. Fred OH

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EIL

10-31-2003 22:31:31




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 Re: odd brands in reply to EIL, 10-30-2003 19:11:52  
I am in southern louisiana. I saw all these old brands at the vo-tech school that I attend. This school has been open since the 1950's. They have snap-on, s-k, k-d, armstrong, wright, williams, cornwell, popular mechanics, craftsman, proto, napa, sparta, herbrand, bonney, blue point, blackhawk, stanely, p&c, walden, grey canada, apex, thorsen, challenger, new britain, and numerious other brands. My dad also has a lot of p&c tools, mostly vise grips and sockets and rachets. I did once see a p&c ratcheting wrench. Thanks everyone, especially john garner for that incrediable amout of information!!!!! One last question,I know for a while the proto and challenger tool line was seperate, then they combined them into proto-challenger. Do these proto challenger tools have a lifetime warrenty? Would they be replaced with a proto? I do know that stanely now markets the name challenger. Thanks for all the help!!!!!

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John Garner

11-01-2003 09:17:09




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 Re: Re: odd brands in reply to EIL, 10-31-2003 22:31:31  
EIL --

The Proto and Challenger lines were never combined into a single line, but at one point in the 1970's IR decided that the public's perception of the Challenger name was a step below where IR wanted it to be. IR decided to make the "ancestory" of the Challenger name more evident by adding the Proto name . . . if I recall correctly, they first used the name Proto-Challenger and soon thereafter changed the name again to Challenger by Proto. Throughout the gyrations with the Challenger name -- which Stanley continued by branding the tools Challenger by Stanley -- the Challenger line remained separate from the Proto line.

In the late 1960's or early 1970's many of the nation's makers of mechanics' hand tools -- especially those in the consumer/homeowner/diy market -- were feeling that their traditional guarantees put them at a competitive disadvantage to the Sears Craftsman lifetime guarantee. A lot of them responded by declaring their own lifetime guarantees, which were often conditional . . . using words like "guaranteed for the life of the tool".

IR's Challenger was one of the tool lines that did just that. Which means that a really old Challenger tool would not have a lifetime guarantee, a more recent Challenger tool would.

In any case, my understanding is that Stanley dropped the Challenger brand from their lineup of tools several years ago. If so, it means that the guarantee today on Challenger tools can be whatever Stanley wants it to be. Stanley could decline to warranty a defective or broken Challenger tool because there is no current-production Challenger tool to replace the broken one with, or they could choose to replace a Challenger tool with an equivalent tool from their current lineup -- which, in the case of a flat wrench, socket, or driver -- would probably be a Stanley-badged tool made in Taiwan.

Since the Challenger guarantee is at Stanley's discretion, they could choose to replace a Challenger tool with a Proto or MAC . . . but I'd be fall-off-my-chair astonished if they did that. I've heard reports of Stanley trying to replace broken MAC tools with Proto and broken Proto with made-in-Taiwan Stanley tools (in other words, replace broken higher-priced tools with lower-priced tools), but never heard of them "upgrading" a replacement tool.

For whatever it's worth, most of the mechanics' hand tools being imported into the US from Taiwan today are pretty darn good. Sure, they lack prestige, but when it comes right down to it, they can be a great value. The large toolmakers in Taiwan have very modern forging, cold extrusion, and heat-treating equipment and today's high-volume steelmakers have modern equipment too. Today's good made-in-Taiwan tools are manufactured very efficiently from clean steel . . . frankly, the manufacturing quality and the steel quality of these tools is much better than that going into the American tools of the 1960's and 1970's in most cases. Remember, no marketing association (Ace, True Value, or the aftermarket auto parts associations) is going to be successful selling lifetime-guarantee tools that don't hold up.

John

John

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Brian Hancher

02-10-2004 20:13:33




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 Re: Re: Re: odd brands in reply to John Garner, 11-01-2003 09:17:09  
I did a google search on "Proto Challenger" and came across this thread. May I infer from the preceding posts that "Challenger" tools are not "really" Proto tools?

Earlier today, I picked up an interesting litle 1/4" drive set. I saw "Proto" on this stuff, and a $5 pricetag, and jumped on it. If it's nothing special, I'm not hurt at $5, but if someone could give me any additional details on the history of "Proto Challenger", or at least tell me whether or not these were at least truly made in the USA, I'd appreciate it. This set came in a red plastic box marked "Challenger by Proto", with the following:

Ratchet, feels like 64 teeth (16 clicks to a quarter turn). On one side marked "1060C Challenger", on the other marked "Proto U.S.A."

3" Extension is marked "CHALLENGER PROTO USA", and a Screwdriver type driver, simply marked "Challenger"

A total of 9 sockets, all 6-point, marked as follows:
"Stanley Challenger": 12mm, 10mm, 8mm, 7mm, 6mm, 4mm
"Challenger by Proto": 11mm, 9mm, 5mm

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John Garner

10-31-2003 13:39:09




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 Re: odd brands in reply to EIL, 10-30-2003 19:11:52  
EIL --

P&C was founded in the 1920's or thereabouts by a couple of Scandinavian blacksmiths in . . . um . . . Idaho . . . or maybe it was Oregon . . . at any rate, they started making wrenches (for automobiles) when they weren't doing conventional blacksmithing and built the business from there. They eventually set up a wrench factory in Portland, Oregon. Not to long afterward, Morris Pendleton bought P&C to be a part of his Pendleton Tool Industries.

Around the time of WWII the P&C line was blended into Pendleton's other line of superior-quality tools, Plomb. The blended lines were sold under both the P&C and Plomb (later Proto) names until the early 1960's.

Pendleton Tool Industries was sold to Ingersoll Rand at about that same time, and I don't know if it was a Pendleton decision or an IR decision, but somebody decided that the Pendleton sales forces were spending too much time and effort competing against each other. The multitude of Pendleton brands were reduced to just a few brands over a period of several years, leaving Proto as the surviving premium line and Challenger as the surviving economy line.

Ingersoll Rand sold their Hand Tool Division to Stanley in 1984 or so.

Sparta was the National Auto Parts Association (NAPA) line of economy tools in the early to mid 1970's. Like NAPA's premium line, New Britain, the Sparta tools were made for NAPA by the Hand Tool Division of the New Britain Machine Division of Litton Industries.

Litton produced a number of different tool brands in two fundamentally-different lines. Their premium tools were sold under the New Britain name through NAPA and under the Blackhawk name through non-NAPA automotive and perhaps a smattering of industrial channels. The economy line of tools was sold through NAPA under the Sparta name, through other automotive channels as Husky, and were private-labelled Penncraft for J C Penney. I have also seen some of this line of tools branded "Mustang". (It's worth noting that several other makers produced Penncraft tools for J C Penney, including SK after New Britain folded.)

Litton Industries folded their hand tool business in the early 1980's, and some of their tradenames and designs were sold to National Hand Tool of Dallas, Texas. National Hand Tool sold tools under the Blackhawk and Husky brands . . . keeping those lines in the same market segments that New Britain originally positioned them. National Hand Tool did sell some Craftsman-branded ratchets to Sears, but as far as I know neither New Britain nor National Hand Tool branded any of their flat wrenches for Sears.

A couple of years after New Britain Hand Tool closed down, Stanley bought National Hand Tool.

Stevens-Walden of Wostershire, Mass made the Walden wrenches you ask about. I've seen and used a few Walden tools over the years, and my general impression was that they were "old fashioned" in many ways and their fit-and-finish was not the best by a long shot. I don't honestly know about the quality of their metal and heat treating, but as I say, they smacked of being "econominal" tools.

Interesting enough, Stevens-Walden significantly outlasted several of their higher-quality North-Eastern competitors -- including New Britain, Billings & Spencer, Herbrand, and Bonney -- I believe that Stevens-Walden hung on until the early to mid 1990's before they finally shut their doors for the last time.

Out of curiousity, what part of the country are you in? I've not found substantial numbers of both West Coast and East Coast old-brand-name tools in the same general area.

John

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Bus Driver

10-31-2003 16:50:38




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 Re: Re: odd brands in reply to John Garner, 10-31-2003 13:39:09  
Interesting history lesson. Enjoyed it, thanks. I have a few Proto and P&C here in NC. My uncle, career Army WWII and Korea, gave me an odd shaped 1/2" drive ratchet finished in- dang, the name just escaped me- same as the M-1 rifle, sort of olive drab metal- appears to be original finish. The handle on the ratchet is basically flat. No government markings.



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Bus Driver

11-01-2003 10:04:11




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 Re: Re: Re: odd brands in reply to Bus Driver, 10-31-2003 16:50:38  
The term for the finish on the ratchet is "Parkerized". Many of the military weapons had the same finish. I also have a very old Craftsman socket that has no finish at all- was never plated. Looks as if it was never intended to be plated.



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art

10-31-2003 12:24:43




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 Re: odd brands in reply to EIL, 10-30-2003 19:11:52  
Gray hand tools is still around. I believe they carry a lifetime guarantee also. I have some Sparta tools that I haven't been able to kill after 20 years of abuse. I got them at a garage sale.



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Wayne

10-30-2003 20:12:56




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 Re: odd brands in reply to EIL, 10-30-2003 19:11:52  
Can't say I've ever heard of P&C, but the others from what I've seen seem to be pretty good tools. The fact that they are fairly old and still in use like you say tells me that they are good quality otherwise they would have long ago hit the scrap bin. Everybody has their pet brands, but I always just trust my eye. If it looks and feels like a good tool, then if probably is. We've got stuff that's over 30 years old that doesn't have any name at all on it that I would pick over the new name brand stuff. Too, once you get over about 1 1/4 in the wrenches, the cost of the name brand stuff is high in comparison to the amount of use. Over that, I's say get a set from Harbor Freight, Northern, etc for cheap. The biggest uses they'll see is hydraulic lines and they aren't gonna be that tight. If you do happen to break one though, you can still buy 4 more before you get near the cost of the name brand stuff. I will have to say every brand has it's advantages and disadvantages, so a good mix is nice to have. You might need one with this angle this time, or one with a little thinner head next time, or whatever, so the more choices you have the better. Also don't forget the cheap stuff in the smaller sizes too for those special wrenches that your gonna have to make on occasion. You don't want to grab one of your high dollar name brands to heat with the torch and bend at a 73 1/3 degree angle to get that impossible bolt out, and sooner or later that's gonna happen, so the cheap stuff is nice to have around too. Just my .02
Again good luck, and have fun.

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RJ-AZ

11-01-2003 06:24:20




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 Re: Re: odd brands in reply to Wayne, 10-30-2003 20:12:56  
Hey Wayne you shoulda seen my friends face when I pulled out that 1 1/2" Harbor Freight wrench and torched it in half to get to a hyd fitting on a Case W20C loader.



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Harold Hubbard

10-31-2003 04:14:42




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 Re: Re: odd brands in reply to Wayne, 10-30-2003 20:12:56  
Cheap stuff is also good to carry in the tractor toolbox, or to lend out. You don't get nearly as upset when it disappears or gets ruined.



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