220 wiring question

Question: Is it OK to connect the extra
neutral (white wire) to the ground (green wire)
on the dryer?

Dave-

and this thread once again has proved my point.

Why? There's wrong info, correct info, incomplete info and some of all three.

For someone who now is reading this current thread, they might get the hint NOT to use any posters info as it would be hard to tell who's correct and who's not.

Where the biggest concern would be is the person who draws the wrong info from out of the archives upon a search without reading the entire thread. We now could have a dead member!

This forum does not allow for a edited post by the author. Thats makes it very difficult to write all the correct info in such a short explanation without errors.

I do realize that people like to help others, but this is one thread that should have died long ago. I believe there's been very poor judgement of alot of the reqular posters to all the new members just arriving.

Kim, the site owner, has notices that the author is responsible for the content of there posts and I surely can see why that notice is needed after reading this thread.

What I believe would be more constructive of the forum members, would be to elect a chair person, then have individuals write up a complete article on the subject via e-mail. Finalilize the end draft then post the entire content in a "correct" thread that has all the wrong info deleated.

You are a forum member the first time you post. We don't know you exist until you post a message.

Now that would be a great service to new members and to anyone searching the archives weather a member or not.

T_Bone

There is a homesteading site that has a computer help section. But it is _extremely_ tightly controlled by it's moderator - the thinking is, that doing something wrong on a computer can really mess it up. But things are so tightly controlled there, that it is unfriendly! Not too many people left. You have to pass a litmus test to post any replies at all, and are pretty much ignored by the choosen few. Any question is quickly refered to the help sections, and don't come back until you read them! After a while, it seems like people posting questions there are a big hassle to the choosen few.....

Just not fun.

I think people should realize they get what they pay for on an internet discussion forum. From computers to hydraulics to wiring.

I do see the problem, but eliminating the discussion doesn't really help either. Must be some middle ground somewhere.

My opinion.

--->Paul

Ya I here what your saying. That would be the last thing I would want to see happen is the forum not have open posting.

Thats why I thougth of the e-mail discussion might work. It's much more interesting to "see" the thread develope as it happens tho. I then thought maybe posting a thread sugject giving the e-mail addy of the chair person so anyone could join in.

As it stands now, in the cuurent thread, which post has the correct answer? That is what I think needs to be answered as a final subject title so then someone searching the archives or people just waiting too see the out come, would then have the correct info to complete the task at hand.

Maybe it would be best just letting the thread develope on yt-mag, with you guys picking someone via e-mail to give the final word on what is correct. That way atleast someone could say, this is the correct final post that all members have agreed too that was in the discussion.

Your right about other subjects being just as touchy. I've also wanted to help with gas tank, gas cylinders welding questions but there's just too much risk of someone getting hurt for a one person comment.

The intent of my post was to improve the discussion and not kill it but also find a good way to discuss other sensitive topics that has come up in the past.

Suggestions anyone?

T_Bone

--->Paul

But I think for the most part, those reading the replies will take more to mind the postings of licensed journeypersons (being PC here...LOL) than plain ole farmers like us. Even tho some of us are capable of doing as good a work correctly like a licensed professional.

T-bone, I hear what you are saying about the archives problems with only a few of the posts being read and a wrong conclusion being drawn at a later date.

In a situation like this, maybe the moderator could just make a posting something to the effect that general opinions and professional opinions are included in the responses and label it in a way that would alert the "uninformed" reader to read close.

OT now, but paul, whereabouts in MN?? I'm in the New Ulm area.

Bruce

It's fairly easy to make things work; seems pretty hard to make them right & safe when no one bothers to understand!

Your comment is kinda the point of all my messages in this thread. Since, obviously, I was no real help to the original poster.....

--->Paul

When I was growing up 3 wire 110 and 4 wire 220 were unheard of , when I was in ele engineering in college they were showing up. Just to convince myself that I had not forgoten everything in the past 40+ years since college, I went out to the service on the pole . The neutral is tied to the ground rod and in the service panel in the house they are tied also .That tells me that the neutral is neutral but it is also ground and when you add the grn or bare it is safety ground . And yes the panels were done by an electrician and inspected by the powers that be .

george

Just can't mix those ground & neutral wires, bad deal!

--->Paul

• dryers

I understand your concern but I'm not
one to say put a butter knife in between
connectors to see if the circut is live.
( Not being a smart A@@ ). The information
I was given was one that I appreciated and did
work. As my wife is doing the clothes drying as
I write this..

I really appreciate all help everyone has given me..

Thanks,

Dave-

Very many times these drier curcits were add-ons, and were not wired right to begin with. As long as your drier has the 2 live wires going to the 2 drier inputs, it will _work_. (Many timers & such use 120v - then you need a third wire to make those work - either of the other 2 wires; or both; going to this lead will make it _work_.) But if the other 2 wires aren't right, you'll never know until something goes wrong - only takes a little spilled water or something simple.....

That is the concern people have for your wife - it's easy to make electrical things work. But they can still be wired wrong, and be hazardous. Without any color coding at all, you can randomly wire the 4 wires to the drier, & have a 50% chance of it working.

You'll never know. We hope.

--->Paul

Dave-

Just to make things confusing, the neutral return, the safety ground, the metal case of your service panel, and your grounding electrode(s) are most likely all connected to each other back at the service entrance panel. So almost any connection will "work"; but some are safer than others.

Ideally, the dryer neutral should be isolated from the case. This way the white wire can be connected to the neutral bar on the dryer, and the green wire connected to the case of the dryer. Some dryers use a "pigtail" to tie the case to the neutral right at the terminal block. If you have the instruction manual, it may be possible to remove this jumper and rewire the dryer to this safer system, and use the 4 wire plug as it was meant to be used.

Your 220V air compressor does not have or need a neutral, but does need a safety ground. You can use your 4 wire plug by connecting only the green, red, and black wires, and insulating the end of the white wire.

It might be a good idea to verify the continuity of the safety ground, especially if there is any doubt as to the code compliance of the installation. Relatively new homes with 4 wire plugs installed by the builder are likely OK, but those rewired by the previous homeowner should be suspect.

How should I wire the 3 wire pigtail to the 4 prong male end?

Thanks,

Dave-

Ok, I'm a simple dirt farmer, so I'm not giving electrical advice - I could hurt you, and I wouldn't feel good about that.

From your messages, I see you don't understand the difference between the ground wire and the neutral wire.

Most people don't.

The neutral wire is used by your power equipment.

The ground wire protects all the metal surfaces from becoming charged - like, if there is a short or some insulation peels off or water drips in. It grounds all the metal surfaces back to a good safe ground, so YOU don't become part of the electical path.

Now, it kinda looks to most of us like the ground & the neutral wire start & end in the same place, so we can interchange them - as you did above.

But, it's real dangerous to do so. The equipment will work fine, so no one will notice it's wrong.

But, if anything goes wrong, it's a real death trap to wire this up wrong.

The green ground wire is there to protect people from shorts, malfuntions, bad insulation, etc. It needs it's own run, and to be grounded way back to the main box, isolated from all the other ground bars & wires. That's the only way it can do it's job. If you don't do the ground wire right, it just becomes an extension of the neutral wire - which isn't really neutral. You end up putting a lot of potential voltage to all the metal the green wires are attached to.

It's a difficult thing to understand, but if you study on it a while, the light bulb will come on, & you will see why it needs to be the way it is.

And you won't ever refer to the 'ground/neutral' wire again - they are 2 very different things! :)

Not trying to be critical, just trying to help.

--->Paul

I appreciate any help someone is willing to give.
Your explanation gives me alot of information..

Thanks,

Dave-

Which is _not_ what I, or others, want to do. :) Just how short messages turn out.

My whole farm is wired with a 60 amp main fuse, 220. This is not enough. I'm too poor to upgrade 'today' but want to soon as I can. Much of the wiring here is from the '50s, no ground (2 wire) and has been added to a bit by dad. Need to chuck it all & get it done right.

My plan is to get an electrician in to wire from a (power company supplied) new main fuse to the house & barn with a new panel in the house so I have good solid, to code, start. Then do the outbuildings myself as money allows.

Since I have more time than money, I've been studying wiring & code a bit.

This whole ground vs neutral wire is the _biggest_ thing I see come up in discussions. Many times they start & end in the same place (sometimes they are supposed to, sometimes not!) and so it looks like you would only need one.

But, they serve different purposes, and each needs to be serperate from the other.

On your 220 circut, you should have a red power line & a black power line (both hot at 120v alternating opposite each other - together make ~220) as well as a nuetral (which is used to carry away power from 120v applications) and a green or bare ground wire to protect humans from things that go wrong and make breakers pop before things catch on fire.

_Exactly_ how these hook up (the white neutral might not be needed if your application does not use 120v - while the green ground wire is not used _unless_ there is a problem) will depend on local codes, where you are feeding from (main box or subpanel) and so on.

Some might tell you you only need the 2 power lines to make your 220 machine work. This is true if it does not have a 120v clock, lightbulb, etc on it.

To make it safe, legal, and up to code, you probably need all 4 wires hooked up properly. Some codes in the past allow you to use only 3 for special cases - and this is where lots of confusion comes in. :)

Sorry I'm so long winded, and have such little real info that helps.

--->Paul

However, I think I understand it a bit better than you. Yelling at me doesn't make you right. :)

While it looks like '2 phase' there is no such thing in home wiring. both 120 & 240 is single phase.

I stand by my claim, true 240v applications without need of 120v will run on only the 2 hot wires. I'm not prepared to explain that better than I have, but I do believe you are giving some bad advise at this point. Perhaps you could study up on it from someone better than I, but:

Both hots are 120v, they are opposite on the AC pulse. So together, they offer 240v potential. (As pros can tell now, I'm not quite using the proper words - so I will stop before I lead someone astray.)

I'm not writing to you for any other reason but to help others - doesn't matter to me if you yell at me or not. If we are going to offer advise on electricity we need to do so responsibly. I think your advise is bad, and could hurt someone if they are lead to the wrong conclusions.

--->Paul

240Volt feed to a typical house comes from the secondary side of a center tapped transformer. There is only one "phase" involved. (As contrasted with 3-phase industrial-style power, a different matter entirely).

The center point on the secondary is grounded at the service entrance (and the power pole).

If you only need 240Volts to an appliance (like for a compressor) the current flow is from one end of the secondary winding to the other. The neutral is neither used nor needed. The circuit WILL work, as evidenced by my own 240 volt air compressor which is hooked up just this way. You could, in theory, snip the center wire coming down from the pole, pull out the ground stake, rip out the neutral bar from the panel, and all your 240 volt loads will continue to run just fine.

If you need 120 volts (as for lights and outlets), then (and only then) do you run from one end of the secondary to the neutral, thereby getting half of the total available voltage. Still just one "phase", split into two halves.

An appliance like a dryer needs a mix of voltages. It needs 240 volts for the heating coils and drum motor, and 120 volts for cycle controls, relays, buzzers, etc. The 240 volt loads go between the two hot leads. The 120 volt loads go from one or the other of the hot leads to the neutral.

The safety ground is something that can (and generally should) be used for every appliance, whether it uses 120 volts, 240 volts, or a mix. It is not necessary for the device to function. No current should flow through the safety ground unless something is broken. But it does avoid the possibility of the metal frame of the appliance from becoming energized to 120 volts (relative to ground), through inadvertant contact with one of the "hot" leads.

You are correct in observing that hooking up both hots of an appliance to the same "side of the phase" will not allow the 240 volt circuits to work.

Couple things for JOHN (LA):

ALL CAPITAL LETTERS MEANS YOU ARE YELLING!!!

You are confused or just misinformed.

You have nothing to yell about, esecially at Paul.

220-240 volts will work with only two wires, not safely or according to code, but the machine, motor, appliance whatever will run as long as the control circuit is not 120 volts. The reason for the nuetral wire is to provide a return path for one side of the 220-240 to give 120 volts at the machine. If 120 volts is not needed, then the white nuetral is not needed.

A *GREEN* ground wire is needed to ground the case of the machine to prevent shocks from stray voltage affecting someone who touchs the machine. The *GREEN* wire should never be used to provide the nuetral path to provide 120 volts at the machine. If you do you are applying voltage potential to the case of the machine.

Which, BTW, I find a lot in my travels as an HVAC technician.

touch a live hot wire and no ground. will it shock you? no the circuit is not complete

in our fuse boxes the netural and ground are hooked to the same bar. I allways stated some codes require 4 wire system.

If you touch both hot wires in the top of your box at the same time, you will indeed get shocked, without touching the ground or nuetral bar.

If you have voltmeter at your disposal, you can prove what I've said. Just check across the two hot wires in the top of your box. You will come up with 220-245 volts depending on the ultility furnishing your power.

Now check from one of the hot wires to the nuetral bar, you will have 120-130 volts.

If you only touch one of the hot wires and are not grounded, no you will not get shocked, but touch both and you will get whatever your voltmeter shows, and it won't be a pleasant feeling, and may be downright lethal.

One other question. I have a 220V compressor I would like to connect to the dryer outlet and it has a 3 wire system. I purchased the male end for
it to work in the dryer outlet. So how should I wire that one?

Thanks,

Dave-

DRYER PLUG COMPRESSOR BLACK (HOT)----- ----- ----- --BLACK RED (HOT)----- ----- ----- --WHITE WHITE (NETURAL)----- ----- ----GREEN GREEN (GROUND)----- ----- -----TO CASE
same wires do not use red wires.
like I said in last post the green to case can be added by you or omited. YOUR CALL!!!!!

But, we are kind of guessing on that.

You are _probably_ right.

But, lots of good people have been killed by being slightly wrong with electricity.....

So, we are guessing that whoever wired up the compresser used the wrong colored wire, and hooked up the 2 hots to black & white, and since a true 220v appliance doesn't need a nuetral, used the green as a true ground - not neutral. That's the way people often do it when they have the wrong wire at hand....

But, that is _just_ a guess, and someone who used the wrong colored wire might also use the wrong colors. So, be real careful.

A friend of mine had an electrician out wiring up 'new used' grain drier/ augers/ etc at his farm. The experianced electrician wired things up, and as they got an auger to touch a holding bin, sparks flew & the 220v fuses blew. It sparked so bad it burned holes in the auger tube. The electrician looked around, and found an electric motor that was wired wrong internally - the wire colors were reversed & he hadn't checked for that.

Since both he & my friend were touching various parts of this grain system at the time - the electrician said by rights one of us should be dead, as it's about 50-50 someone gets killed in a deal like this.

--->Paul

FOR 110!!!!! !!
BLACK ALL WAYS HOT
WHITE ALL WAYS NETURAL
GREEN OR BARE ALL WAYS GROUND

I now know more about 220V wiring than I've ever
known before.

What started this is I went to Lowes for a pigtail
for my dryer. Since I now have a 4 prong 220V dryer
outlet and my existing dryer was 3 prong I asked what about the 4'th wire. He (Lows employee) told me to just connect the green wire to the white. I didn't think that was correct.

According to some of you that would of worked fine
but it wouldn't be the correct thing to do according to safety. Thats why these forums are
great.

What I learned ( Please let me know if I'm wrong)
Is that the neutral goes to the power supply ground. The true ground (green wire ) will go to
the unit's chassis .

What I'm not sure about is where the extra ground
connection (4'th wire) is wired to from the house. Is it there is an extra ground rod within the house they wire that to?

Thanks again,

Dave-

This green ground wire gets tied into the ground bar at the main breaker box of your house - so at this one place, both the neutral white wire & the green ground wire are connected to the same ground strap - which is connected to metal water pipe and/or (mostly 'and' these days) a ground rod or 3.

It should be isolated at all other sub-panels, and carried to the one main box where it is bonded to the ground bar. To prevent stray voltage or odd loops with water pipe or 'energizing' the ground wire by accident & so on, new code says it's important to only ground this wire at the one service entrance, not at any other subpanels.

Again, that's the simple farmer explination - for a clearer reasoning of it all, check with an expert or textbook. :)

--->Paul