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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Multiple generator hookup

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Gene Davis(Ga.)

09-25-2003 20:11:26




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What would happen,or could it be done? If you had two belt driven small output generator heads and wanted to feed them into one panel. Say for instance an 8kw generator and a 5kw alternator fed into some sort of common output to go to the load source. Would it all go up in smoke, or what? I have a 24 hp engine pulling an 8kw generator, and wondered if I could add a smaller unit and gain a little more output,or is this wishful thinking? Thanks; Gene Davis

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MarkB

09-26-2003 18:50:11




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 Re: Multiple generator hookup in reply to Gene Davis(Ga.), 09-25-2003 20:11:26  
Gene,

As has been said before, alternators must be synchronized before they can be connected. Most of the portable generators you buy today weren't intended to be paralleled with other generators.

My uncle was in the Army Signal Corp during the Korean conflict. I remember him telling the story of when a technician tried to bring another generator on line without first synchronizing it with the other generators. He said that the engine on the genset was ripped out of its motor mounts!

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T_Bone

09-26-2003 08:52:48




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 Re: Multiple generator hookup in reply to Gene Davis(Ga.), 09-25-2003 20:11:26  
Hi Gene,

From what I remember about generators you would need to control both the field current and the frequency (rpm) on like units.

To run different size units then you need to add a demand splitter circuit to the above controls.

Neither is easy to accomplish!


Honda makes a parrell cord for there units on some models. The (2)2000 or (2)3000 model units are popular with RV'ers for parrell connection.

Honda says not to mix different size units but the link below says different. I think I would be very leary if your wanting your Honda warranty.

Honda I believe is using invertor based gensets and not acutally a dynamo generator. I'm really not sure as I have not kept up with newer generator technology.

I do know that here our electric utility gets extremely bent out of shape when people add back-up generators without telling them. Thats to keep there employees from getting fried.

T_Bone

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ChuckG

09-26-2003 08:15:53




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 Re: Multiple generator hookup in reply to Gene Davis(Ga.), 09-25-2003 20:11:26  
It looks like the technical & practical reasons you do not want to try and connect 2 gensets together have been well explained. A few years back I purchased a 35 KW PTO Generator and a manual 250A Panel Switch and hard wired it into my main panel that is split to the house the barn and the shop. When power goes out or if weather begins to look bad, I back the tractor up to it, connect the drawbar and drive shaft then if I need the power, I start her up, run it up to show 60 htz and flip the main switch and power is restored to all 3 buildings and security lights. I wired a light into the electric company's side of the switch so when power comes back on it lights telling me I can switch back. We can run everything in our all electric house at the same time without running extention cords including the heat pump, water heater, dryer and most importantly on a cold night - the hot tub. It will even run the 7.5 hp compressor and welders. You should be able to find a decent low hour PTO generator pretty cheap since many were bought in anticipation of Y2K and if you have a tractor with a PTO you already have a perfectly governed power supply - the switch is icing on the cake, but I wouldn't do without it. Good Luck!

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Halbert

09-26-2003 11:10:30




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 Re: Re: Multiple generator hookup in reply to ChuckG, 09-26-2003 08:15:53  
Chuck- How much $$ would I be looking to spend on a PTO unit of that size, used/new? What size/hp tractor are you using. I have an Oliver 1655, 70+HP. Are any makes of PTO generators better than others; what is good to look for or avoid?

Thanks.



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Robert in W. Mi

09-26-2003 19:05:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Multiple generator hookup in reply to Halbert, 09-26-2003 11:10:30  
I bought my Winpower PTO genset from my local farm store when they were going out of business. It's 15kw cont. duty, brushless, and puts out very clean power. I paid $1,200.00 for it, and i like it better than any of the other gen sets i've owned. (includeing stand alones, and welder gen sets)

I have it on a cheap trailor, and i can load my welder along side it, (stick or wire feed) plug the welder in, and weld away!!! I can use my side grinder and a good light or anything else i need, or all at the same time too!! I can run it with a gas tractor, or diesel tractor, and if i don't need a lot of power, i can use my small diesel compact tractor to run it!!

Remember, for continous PTO output, you should never pull more than 80% of the "max rated out put" of your PTO on your tractor.

Personally, i think it's safer to use 2hp per kw., as that allows for any drive line or other inefficienties that "do" occur. For max power out of my 15kw unit, figureing in the 80% factor, i use my 42 PTO hp tractor. BUT, it would be "rare" that i'd "ever" need 15kw cont..

Robert

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ChuckG

09-26-2003 14:01:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Multiple generator hookup in reply to Halbert, 09-26-2003 11:10:30  
Red Dave is right. 1.5hp/KW used is a good guide. Even if you have an 80KW generator - it will not take any more hp to run it at 25KW than a 25KW generator would at the same output. Your tractor will have to turn the PTO @ 540 (+/-) so it will be running pretty high - even with a light load. I use my JD 970 (30hp) and it will run the house very easily. But if I try to add the 7.5hp Air Compressor in the shop to the load it will drag the 970 down. If I use the 4020 it will put out all of the 35KW and 60KW peak with the 95hp of the 4020. Your 70hp tractor will run a 25KW with no problem. I like to use the 970 because it uses a lot less fuel, makes less noise and is a lot newer. It looks like they are bringing $1100. to $3200. on Ebay depending on new/used, the age, size and on wheels or skids. Type "PTO Generator" in google.com and you will get lots of places to look. I found out that the most critical part of a PTO Generator is not the Generator, but is the Gearbox. The warranty is a good indicator of how good the manufacturer thinks the part is. You should be able to find a barely used one in good shape for 1/2 or less of what a new one would cost and closer to home. Why buy a whole generator when, if you have a tractor, you already have the expensive part! Good Luck!

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Red Dave

09-26-2003 11:41:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Multiple generator hookup in reply to Halbert, 09-26-2003 11:10:30  
Halbert, Northern Tool & Equipment catalog has several PTO generators in it. They have a 27,500 watt PTO generator for $1999.00. Catalog calls for 48 PTO horses. You can probably get one locally for a comparable price.
You could run a lot of generator with 70+ HP, if you wanted to.



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Red Dave

09-26-2003 06:48:53




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 Re: Multiple generator hookup in reply to Gene Davis(Ga.), 09-25-2003 20:11:26  
No, it won't work because one will tend to hog all the load while the other will loaf along with little or no load.
You would have to get governors that are made to share load by having one of them in isochronous mode while the other works as a speed-droop governor. Small engine-generator sets seldom have those type of governors on them because they don't need it and it would be very expensive.
Companies like Woodward Governor and others make them for larger generators, but Ive never seen them on 5 & 8 kw generators.
We have them on a pair of 350kw diesel backup generators here at work, for instance.

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Bob M

09-26-2003 04:58:24




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 Re: Multiple generator hookup in reply to Gene Davis(Ga.), 09-25-2003 20:11:26  
Wishful thinking Gene! Your idea can work if the generators are electrically isolated from each other - i.e. if they feed independent circuits/loads. However successfully electrically paralleling small generators and getting them to share the load is a task not easily accomplished. The generator heads must have externally adjustable field controls, KVA meters to indicate the relative output, etc. Otherwise the crude regulation inherent in these units will result in one generator pulling all the load - and perhaps also backfeeding power into the other generator. You could wind up with less output that the single generator working alone, and run the risk of burning one (or both�) of 'em up.

Bottom line - use two generators to feed independent loads but forget about electrically paralleling them.

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Don Young

09-25-2003 21:19:49




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 Re: Multiple generator hookup in reply to Gene Davis(Ga.), 09-25-2003 20:11:26  
Probably would work okay if generators fed separate loads. Paralleling generators can be done but requires them to be in phase. With a common drive this would require some way to rotate one of the generator frames, which is pretty impractical. Properly sharing the load between the generators is practically impossible also, since it requires adjusting the voltage outputs to balance the reactive load and prevent high cross currrents between the generators and balancing the real power requires adjusting the torque angle by changing the power fed to the generator.

In summary,as long as the RPM's are correct they will work with separate electrical connections but not connected together. Two generators with separate engines can be connected together but it's kinda complicated to make them work properly.

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Wayne

09-25-2003 21:11:59




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 Re: Multiple generator hookup in reply to Gene Davis(Ga.), 09-25-2003 20:11:26  
In looking for a generator for my Dad online I saw something the other day about a syncronizer to put two generators together like this but I honestly can't remember where it was. I do know that to run two together they have to be syncronized or it will create a big mess. When I was in the Navy on the USS America I saw what happens when two big turbine driven 3 phase units are paralled out of phase/sync. When they flipped the switch that tied them together it blew the load center wide open in #4 engine room where I worked. Talk about a sauna with no power for ventilation or anything else.... Rule of thumb, from what I've been told, about 1.5Hp per 1Kw (actually 1.341 to 1 according to a conversion chart), so you have enough engine now to drive about a 16Kw generator. We just got a catalog update from The Surplus Center (I think it's the same as Burdens Surplus) the other day with some nice size generator heads at about 1/2 to 1/3 the price of new. They are Leroy Somner units which a friend of ours in the business told me are good units. I have a 8.5Kw Leroy Somner on a 2 cylinder Lister-Petter diesel and it doesn't give a bit of problems. You'd probably have less in upgrading this way, since you already have a big enough engine, than in buyng something to syncronize the others, and you'd have alot more Kw's to boot. Just my .02

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Mark Kw

09-26-2003 05:36:58




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 Re: Re: Multiple generator hookup in reply to Wayne, 09-25-2003 21:11:59  
Don and Wayne said most of what I was going to. I have to also agree with Wayne in suggesting that the best solution will likely be to upgrade the generator and keep the engine you already have. Some things people miss with gensets is that they are nothing more than two components, and engine and a generator. There is nothing special about them, of course not talking about fancy units with load sensing circuits, auto start/stop and switch gear, sticking to bare bones start and go units here.

"Two bearing" generators cost a bit more at the outset simply because of the added components and framing necessary to support them. In the long run, going with a "two bearing" is far more cost effective than using a direct coupled single or no bearing gen. A good two bearing generator can be found in many places depending on what you are looking for. If you want best of the best and can afford it Mitsubishi Electric is the brand of choice. Harder to find dealers and parts for but then again you'll probably never need to repair it. I know many will scoff at the above statement but speaking from experience, their motors and generators are of excellent quality.

Sticking to generators alone here, while I would prefer a Mitsu over others as first choice, this does not discount the high quality shown by many other companies as well. I think Reliant Electric (or division thereof) builds a lot of generators to spec for other companies but I can not say who or what off hand. I'd stay clear of the "disposable" (cheap) units .... I hate to name names here because it usually causes discontent with someone .... I'll leave it as those genset units you find at the home/hardware stores selling for less than $2,000.

I keep getting off point here. Depending on what service you expect from the unit as well as how much you can afford to invest in one will be the two main points for choice. Are you only going to use it as a dedicated "stand-by" unit for your home during power outages? How often do you loose power and for how long? Could it be of use elsewhere; cabin, farm, camping, construction jobs? Face it, a 24 Hp engine is not easily moved around so if this is going to be portable, I hope it's on a trailer. Add the weight of a 10 - 15 Kw two bearing generator and you got a unit that's heavy.

I can't see anyone who loses power once a year for less than 12 hours needing anything more than a cheap genset capable of 120/240 @ 5 Kw. It's just not cost effective to hard wire the unit into the home, get a couple cords and just plug in the applicance you need to run like the freezer or boiler. The least expensive transfer switches will run you close to 300 bucks plus another 150 or so for conduit and wire, while installing a few outlets and plugs for critical appliances like the well pump, water heater or boiler will cost you generally less than 100 bucks using good quality stuff.

Now, if you loose power ten times a year for a day or more, you got a good reason to hard wire a big unit into place and be done. If you want to trailer mount this unit and be able to power the buzz box in the field or run a construction crew or power the cabin, then you should look at buying the best quality you can find at a reasonable price. I've found quality used two bearing units in 120/240 single phase <20kw going for $1500 or less and new ones going around $2500. You gotta shop and shop before buying. I was looking to put a 3 phase unit on my service truck and found prices on new ones vary as much as $2500 from one dealer to the next. One of the best places to check is with amusment ride and mobile vending unit dealers. Most all of these units have a genset on them and you can usually find a lot of good stuff at these places for a lot less than anywhere else simply because of the volume they deal in.

As for hook-up, you have to make that choice once you know the speed and Hp required for the gen unit. If the gen needs 3600 rpm, and you rengine is a high speed, direct shaft coupling with a Lovejoy or other brand shaft coupler is a good choice. If the gen is an 1800 and your engine needs higher rpm to get the Hp, belt drive it matching rpm's withe sheave sizes. I would never hard couple an engine/gen if at all possible unless it is done so from initial design. A Lovejoy coupling or belt will likely burn off/rip up in the event of a catastophic failure on either end of the machine hopefully saving the other from becoming a total loss. In addition, vibration and such can be limited by letting each side stand on it's own vibration mounts and there is also the buffer between the input & output shafts.

Sorry for getting off point and rambling on....

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