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Wiring an Arc Welder

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Ben

09-08-2003 19:52:55

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I have plans to purchase a Millermatic 210 MIG welder here fiarly soon, but much to my dismay, my load center is full, and I have no plug in the garadge to run the welder. I have been told that I can pull off of an existing breaker, such in the following example: I require 240 volts and I'd say that 30 Amps is a good breaker choice for this particular welder. In the load center, I have a dryer, a cooktop, and a set of ovens that all are running on 30 amp, 240 Volt breakers. My question is, if I were to run some wire just out of the knock-out in the bottom of the load center, go about 4 feet below the load center and place a plug there, can I tie into one of those circuits for power? (Obviously, while I'm welding I cannot run that appliance) If so, how do I go about doing that? And finally, what guage wire should I use? Any help or guidance you could give me would be greatly apreciated. (Just a note, I do NOT want to put in a sub pannel.)

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Ben

10-25-2003 08:56:09

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Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-08-2003 19:52:55

SInce I last wrote, I have come up with a way to run the Millermatic 210, but I have a technical question to ask. The welder comes with a NEMA type 6-50P plug (which obviously would require a NEMA type 6-50R receptacle). The breaker that I would be hooking it up to is a 240V/30A circuit, double pole, on a 10 AWG-4 conductor. That being said, I have 2 hots, a neutral, and a bare. So my question is, if I run the two hot leads to the two poles on the receptacle, and use the bare as the ground, is that a safe move? In other words, I want to go from a three wire to a 4 wire, but I don't know if the welder can handle having two hot leads. My wiring guide that I have has said that if you have two hot leads, then you are pulling 120v from both hot bus bars, and therefore do not need a neutral. Something about all that doesn't seem right. Any thoughts?

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Bishop

09-09-2003 20:20:05

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Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-08-2003 19:52:55

You brought back memories. 45 years ago I remember when we first got Central Air Conditioning installed in our Tennessee home, and my father told us not to turn on the Oven in the kitchen when the AC is on. He used the same circuit.

I have wired several homes in several states since then, and I've always stress a big panel with lots of run to grow, you would be surprised how many people choose a small panel to cut the cost of new construction, and then come back to you wanting a bigger panel later.

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Bus Driver

09-09-2003 17:43:37

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Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-08-2003 19:52:55

The one thing no one else has mentioned is the use of the welder in the house. Maybe you are planning to use it in the yard outside. Grass fires are possible. But do consider never using a welder in the house, whether in attached garage or basement. Two houses in my community destroyed by fire caused by welder in the house.

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T_Bone**** The Nay Sayer!

09-09-2003 09:24:33

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Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-08-2003 19:52:55

Hi Ben,

Gees I hate being the nay sayer to wiring by internet but once again :

WIRING BY INTERNET IS GOING TO KILL SOMEONE!

The reason you can NOT put two wires under one clamp is they will always work loose. There is no way that they'll ever keep tight. This is the reason why the electrical code prohibits this practice!

If you can not go thinn breakers then It cost less than $75 put put in a sub-pannel with the correct wiring size and breakers.

For $75 your gonna risk your familys life?

T_Bone

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DiggerLarry

09-09-2003 11:53:41

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Re: Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to T_Bone**** The Nay Sayer!, 09-09-2003 09:24:33

Amen!

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PKurilecz

09-09-2003 08:46:58

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Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-08-2003 19:52:55

Hello:

A couple of items.

First, what is the size of the service coming into your house? Check this by looking at the rating of the main breaker on your panel.

Second, do not wire two circuits into one breaker.

Three, check the nameplate of the welder that you are purchasing. This will tell you the size of the circuit that you will need. Generally the ampacities of conductors are as follows:

12 gauge: 20A
10 gauge: 30A
8 gauge: 36A

Four, make sure that neutrals and grounds are run as required.

Five, if you have sufficient ampacity in your panel and feeder you may be able to wire in a subpanel. If the subpanel has no more than six throws, it will not need it own subpanel breaker.

To do this, you will remove certain circuits from your existing panel.

Install a large breaker (ampacity to be determined by the load on the subpanel) in your existing panel.

Use this to feed the subpanel.

Rewire the circuits removed from the main panel into the subpanel.

If you do not feel comfortable doing this, hire an electrician.

Usual disclaimers apply.

Hope that this helps.

PKurilecz

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Short Round

09-09-2003 06:22:17

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Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-08-2003 19:52:55

Ben, if you consult Art. 630 of The National Electrical Code you will have all the information you will need, such as duty cycle, overcurrent protection,disconnecting means, grounding and more. I can see that some of the replies to your question will cause you problems and some of them are direct and serious code violations.

So get down to the library and read up on Section 630 in the 2002 code book. If you do not throughly understand what they are saying hire an qualified electrician to do the job. Do it once, do it right and be done with it. Your families safety depends on it. IBEW Electrician

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Ben

09-09-2003 05:57:57

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Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-08-2003 19:52:55

Thanks all! I think I need to do some more homework, but now I'm leaning toward the idea of rewiring and doubling up on some breakers, and installing a completely seperate one for the welder. I am not 110% sure the welder can run off of 30 amps, it may need a 40 amp breaker. It would be nice to just be able to change that one breaker out if i ever needed to. I apreciate the cmments on the wire, that's what I needed to know. Just on a side note, are there any online resources or books that anyone would recomend to also help in my endeavor? I figure I can never do too much homework when it comes to electricity. As always, thanks for your help. It is greatly apreciated!

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Jerry A.

09-09-2003 05:36:15

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Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-08-2003 19:52:55

Why not switch out 2 of the 120 v breakers to "half width" breakers" (two breakers in one), then you'd have a full opening for a 30 or 40 Amp 220 v breaker. I'd put in at least #8 wire, but consider #6, as you may always want to upgrade to a bigger welder (but then you'd have to change to a larger amp breaker, too). The cost would be insignificant in heavier wire, especially if you're only go to run it a few feet.

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neaj

09-08-2003 21:45:58

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Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-08-2003 19:52:55

You can do as they said, run two wires to the same breaker, however, in some locations that is not legal and will not pass a house inspection if you were to sell it hooked up that way. I have my welder tied into the AC circuit, but will have to remove the welder wires from the breaker before we put the place up for sale. I have only tripped the breaker twice in about 15 years while welding when the airconditioner is also running.

I don't really understand why it would be illegal, but my wife is in real estate and has seen this come up at many house inspections and the home owner had to have this condition corrected before the sale could go through. For some reason the inspector only wants one wire going to a breaker.

Use #10 for 30 amps and #8 for 40 amp circuits. You can always use heavier wire, but not a lighter wire than I have mentioned above,

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arthur

09-08-2003 21:18:11

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Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-08-2003 19:52:55

for 30 amp use #10 wire for 40 amp use #8 .put wires in conduit for mechial protection always look for safty 3/4 pipe will hold 3wire's and ground.

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Bill 52 8n

09-08-2003 20:20:05

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Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-08-2003 19:52:55

You have a couple of options. You can put in "twins" for your 110v breakers and get another 30 amp 240v breaker for the welder. Or you can double up on one of the 240v breakers with the plug for the welder. To double up the 240v, take the wires for the welder plug and the wires for the dryer/ stove (whichever) and twist the two together and before you put them on the breaker. As long as you only use one at a time you will be fine. Just check the label on the welder to make sure 30 amps is enough, i.e. my 200 amp machine requires 40 amp breaker. HTH

Bill

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Ben

09-08-2003 20:23:23

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Re: Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Bill 52 8n, 09-08-2003 20:20:05

Thanks Bill 52, that's what I needed. I think I will just tie into the cooktop circuit. But what gauge wire do you think I should run?

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slowpoke

09-08-2003 22:08:24

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Re: Re: Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-08-2003 20:23:23

I had 40 amp cooktop and 30 amp oven in the box.I switched them around to 40 on the oven and 30 on the cooktop. I bought from Grainger a block which allows one line to be split into two lines, with each wire having it's own connection. Twisting wires under one screw is unsafe and illigal. I ran two wires from a welder receptical box to the block and the line from the oven to the block also. Then two wires from the block to the breaker. The block must be isolated from ground. I mounted a plastic receptical box in the panel and put the block inside it. I'm sure none of this meets code. Beee careful. Always consult a qualified electrician.

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Ben

09-09-2003 20:04:22

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to slowpoke, 09-08-2003 22:08:24

Well perhaps defeat is a good thing in this situation. I am afraid that an electrician is in order here. And by the way, I am aware of house fires and grass fires. I have that alley covered. My last and final question will be does anyone know a good electrician and how much would all this cost?

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kyhayman

09-10-2003 11:49:02

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-09-2003 20:04:22

Electrician came out and put in a sub panel for me for $20.00 He told me what to get and where to hook up what. Then he came out and actually hooked up the hot wires.

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T_Bone

09-09-2003 23:56:33

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Ben, 09-09-2003 20:04:22

Hi Ben,

Not defeat... just moving to plan "B"

Try local high school electrical shop as there always looking for projects, you buy materials they furnish labor. Another good place is Voc-tech classes.

From there hit a local new home project and see what a sparky will cost you for a extra saturday job. Be bold and just walk up and ask a "working" man, maybe you won't ask the foreman like I did one time before I hit the books myself :) That was 2 sixpacks and $25 in the 60's for a 1/2 day job.

T_Bone

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Mark

09-10-2003 13:10:23

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to T_Bone, 09-09-2003 23:56:33

T_Bone has a good suggestion. But I sure like to know what schools still teach any electrical classes. I started teaching Woodworking in 1974. In this day and age all I see are more and more shops vanishing. In my district we had at least 5 shops in every school, now were down to 3 or less. I'm just wondering if it is like that in all areas. The general idea is to emphasize academics, because everyone goes to college now. HA HA.

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springtown sparky

09-11-2003 11:43:58

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wiring an Arc Welder in reply to Mark, 09-10-2003 13:10:23

Best advise would be to consult with a qualified electrician. Installing tandom breakers to gain two spaces might be a sollution. Best sollution would be install a sub-panel. Best sollution yet would be hire an electrician. Lot of brothers out of work because of the economy. Install the welder receptacle out by the door so the welding could be done outdoors. Should be able to get this installed safe correct and code compliant for under $100. What's your home and family worth?
Springtown Sparky IBEW LU #124

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