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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

another propane ?

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Bill

09-03-2003 04:54:24




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I bought a standby generator that uses propane, I want to buy a 100# cylinder for it. does it go bad after time like gasoline?




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Paul Janke

09-03-2003 17:07:28




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 Re: another propane ? in reply to Bill, 09-03-2003 04:54:24  
Using liquid propane requires a vaporizer somewhere in the system. If liquid propane is run into the regulator and the vaporization takes place there, the regulator can freeze up and you end up with tank pressure at your point of use. Propane vaporizes at -44F, but when the tank is in a cold area, the vaporization lowers the temperature of the tank faster than its surroundings can warm it back up. If I needed to run an air cooled engine with propane, I would point the exhaust at the tank.

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Trevor

09-03-2003 16:20:09




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 Re: another propane ? in reply to Bill, 09-03-2003 04:54:24  
Are Propane ganerators not the same as propane forklifts???

If they are they use LIQUID propane. Therefore you should have the proper LIQUID CYLINDERS.

OK to explain, BBQs, torches and heaters use propane gas/vapour however propane engines typically are set up to use the liquid state of propane.

This is why forklifts and portable welders have the aluminum tanks that can lay flat.

The difference in the tanks has to do with piping on the inside of the tank. Your BBQ cylinders have no piping and as the propane vapourizes in the tank the vapours are simply let to escape out the valve at the top of the tank. (this is why they have warnings saying use only in up right position) Liquid cylinders have a little pipe that runs along one side of the inside of the tank and ends close to the bottom of the tank. As the gas vapourizes it pushes liquid propane out the little pipe and out the valve to the engine.

Make sure if you are buying a cylinder for an engine you know what you need.

And as for the responses below.

If you are using liquid propane much less vaporization is taking place in the tank and there for they are less likely to frost up as bad. The majority of the vapourization takes place in the intake of the engine and the heat from the engine prevent freeze up.

But yes below -20 F propane does not vapourize.

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Bill

09-03-2003 16:03:05




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 Re: another propane ? in reply to Bill, 09-03-2003 04:54:24  

thanks for all the advice. the gen will run on propane or gasoline but when the electricity is off for me it,s also out at the gas and go so I can't get gas. I don't want some setting around in a can or in the generator. you have given me a good idea, I'll just set the tank in front of the exhust.



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Glen in TX

09-03-2003 11:38:03




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 Re: another propane ? in reply to Bill, 09-03-2003 04:54:24  
I agree that it won't go bad and you might need a larger tank depending on the size of your engine. We had a 250 gal. tank sitting with propane in it unused for 5 years and put it to use this summer to pump cattle water in a remote location. It will run a 292 Chevrolet for 1 hour on vapor with no problems. Will need a vaporizer to run it longer or in the winter.



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ATW/WA

09-03-2003 11:04:07




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 Re: another propane ? in reply to Bill, 09-03-2003 04:54:24  
Bill, How big is your compressor? We had a Kohler propane I believe ~10 or 14 KW up at the cabin. Worked great, until the weather got cold. We had two 100# cylinders hooked up, and they could not vaporize the fuel if the temperature was much below 20*F. The propane will not go bad, but for cold weather you must size the tank to meet the needs of the compressor.

HTH ATW/WA



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Kennyp

09-03-2003 11:25:18




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 Re: Re: another propane ? in reply to ATW/WA , 09-03-2003 11:04:07  
Butane to 0 degrees, propane to -20 or so. Removing gas cools the tank. Pour a bucket of hot water over it. At 20 below my 500 gal tank wouldn't heat my house so I put a coffee can of gasoline on fire under it...works.



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Kennyp

09-03-2003 17:11:13




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 Re: Re: Re: another propane ? in reply to Kennyp, 09-03-2003 11:25:18  
He, he. Knew I would wake you guys up with that. When its 20 below, 6 inches of snow on the ground, AND NO FUMES LEAKING FROM THE TANK, and the house is getting colder and colder, a can of sand with gasoline is a #1 solution. There is no way that tank is going to blow up. A can of gasoline sitting inside the house is a far worse hazzard.



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ATW/WA

09-03-2003 13:47:40




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 Re: Re: Re: another propane ? in reply to Kennyp, 09-03-2003 11:25:18  
Kenny,

Boy am I glad you brought that up. In my previous post, where I said compressor, think generator. We actually had both, compressor for pneumatic tools; generator for well pump, lights, tools and convience outlets. The cabin was under construction.

A bucket of water would knock the frost off the outside of the tank, maybe get enough pressure to start but not run the generator. We had discussed using the old coffee can with sand soaked in gas as a heat source, however the 100# cylinders were vertical not horizontal, and no wind break at all. Now, the orchardist in central Washington run propane for wind machines and new generation smudge pots. They keep a flame lit underneath their horizontal BIG( 10,000-15,000 gal )propane tanks, but then again they have skirting around the bottom half of the tank for wind protection.

I did not want to introduce the subject until someone else broached it. It can be done, and done safely, At your own risk.

Our solution was to bring in one of the cylinders to thaw in the corner. We had wood heat, Coleman lanterns and stoves for back up, just needed to charge battery powered tools and pump water occassionally.

I did want Bill, to be aware of the size of tank affecting vaporization of propane, and the refridgerant effect compounding the situtation.

If this is for an emergency generator that he must rely on, perhaps he would want to size his propane tank larger to accomadate climatic conditions. Our final solution was to pick up a gasoline carburator for the generator so in winter we could run propane on lesser loads ie. cooking and hot water. Knowing that the generator could at any time be switched over to gasoline.

HTH ATW/WA

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Chris-se-ILL

09-03-2003 12:12:55




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 Re: Re: Re: another propane ? in reply to Kennyp, 09-03-2003 11:25:18  
Kennyp said, "I put a coffee can of gasoline on fire under it..."


Let me guess.... you are a future candidate, in contention to receive the "Darwin Award!"

Your epitath will probably read, "Hey Guys... watch this!!!"



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Gary in TX

09-03-2003 12:27:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: another propane ? in reply to Chris-se-ILL, 09-03-2003 12:12:55  
I agree with yall, Kennyp is a prime candidate for the Here's your sign award for sure. I have heard of those people who have a death wish and this sounds like on of them. Hope he wises up before its too late.



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john

09-03-2003 12:04:17




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 Re: Re: Re: another propane ? in reply to Kennyp, 09-03-2003 11:25:18  
sure glad I live in the south cause there is no way I would put a burning can of gas under a propane tank.



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Chris-se-ILL

09-03-2003 06:01:19




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 Re: another propane ? in reply to Bill, 09-03-2003 04:54:24  
No! Propane is under pressure and has no way to dissipate vapor... or be affected by oxidation. As long as you keep the tank in good condition... the propane will be fine. The only thing that may happen to propane after long term storage is that the "odorant" (also called, stench; aka ethyl-mercaptan) can be absorbed to some extent by the steel tank... and thus lessen the smell of the propane. This however will not affect the propane itself one bit!

Propane can be stored almost indefinitely!

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