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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

knurling tools

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rustyfarmall

08-07-2003 07:59:07




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Where can I find the proper tool needed for knurling valve guides? I checked McMaster-Carr's website, all I found there was tools for knurling outside diameters.
I am not sure yet if this is the way I want to go, But thought I would at least find out where to get what I need.




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Chris-se-ILL

08-08-2003 08:32:55




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 Re: knurling tools in reply to rustyfarmall, 08-07-2003 07:59:07  
As was listed in this thread...

Link

This site has knurling tools and kits that are useful in knurling valve guides.

I used to operate an automotive machine shop in the late '70's and have knurled many, many, many valve guides! There are a lot of DO's and DON'T's to knurling. For me to give a crash course on the subject, may not do justice to you or the job. If you have not knurled a guide before... don't practice on a head that you want to save/keep/use!!!!! !

Problems that you may incur...

*The guide may be so absolutely worn out, that the knurling is a waste of time (not effective) and a waste of money spent by you on the job. {Question; How do YOU determine if the guide is salvagable by knurling it... if you have not had experience in knurling?}

*If the guide is not worn enough and you try to knurle it... you CAN BREAK THE TOOL OFF IN THE GUIDE (at which point you then have a boat anchor)!!!!! You MUST use plenty of lubricant (best lube is one that "is made" for the tool and job) in the knurling process! Not just any lube will work!

*Knurling requires a lot of torque to "FORCE" a tool to displace the metal inside the guide. You may not be able to complete the job (by hand) without the use of a gear-reduction driven drill (with a proper bit attachment). Also a drill style driver keeps the knurling tool moving in the guide.... sometimes, if you stop the forward turning motion of a knurling tool... it seems impossible to start it turning again {at which point, you break it off in the hole... and that is not good! :O }

*Most knurling tools require the use of a "burnishing tool" to resize the guide to the proper valve stem diameter AFTER knurling! A knurling tool WILL NOT SIZE a guide to the proper diameter...!!! It only reduces a worn guide to a "smaller size" ...not THE proper size!

*Guide replacement (as opposed to knurling) is a more permanant repair and will last much longer (knurling is/was a cheap substitute for repairing a worn guide!

*It may be to your benefit to have a qualified automotive machine shop do the job for you! Or better yet... have them replace the guides for you!

*The price of the tools (and fixing your mistakes) may (probably would) outweigh the cost of just having a qualified machine shop do it for you!

(I am very reluctant to recommend anyone doing their own knurling job if they are not an automotive machinist!)

Good luck if you decide to go ahead with this endeavor!!! You will need lots of luck!!!

Chris-se-ILL

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rustyfarmall

08-08-2003 09:07:24




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 Re: Re: knurling tools in reply to Chris-se-ILL, 08-08-2003 08:32:55  
Thank you for the info, I am a machinist, and a mechanic,(notice I didn't say technician), I have not knurled guides before, but I have watched it being done. I already own all of the equipment needed for grinding and resurfacing valves and seats, and yes, I know that after knurling, you need to ream the hole to the proper size,(I have the reamers), also, not to brag, but I am the only one from the shop where I used to work that has never broken a tap while threading holes. Again, Thank you.

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Chris-se-ILL

08-08-2003 14:29:34




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 Re: Re: Re: knurling tools in reply to rustyfarmall, 08-08-2003 09:07:24  
Quote from rustyfarmall, "yes, I know that after knurling, you need to ream the hole to the proper size,(I have the reamers)"

No, you don't need to "ream" the guide after knurling... you need to "burnish" the guide! There is a difference!

When a knurling tool goes through the guide it "squeezes" (displaces) the metal along the walls of the guide. When the knurler pushes against the wall it raises "ridges" in a spiral pattern the length of the guide (you may already know the physical mechanics of knurling, but I state it for those that read it and do not fully understand the process). Anyhow, these ridges resemble a pattern as if the guide had been "tapped" (threaded)... but the process has removed no metal. The knurling tool does not regulate the heighth of the ridges and there for the inside diameter of the guide is not of a consistant diameter (I know that you also know this).

Now to bring the inside of the guide to an accurate (parallel the length of the guide) diameter you have to resize the guide. If you "ream" the hole, with a cutting reamer, you will take even more material (than was worn away by the valve stem) from the inside area of the guide wall. When knurling, you want to retain as much original material as possible in the guide. Therefore you need to "burnish" the walls of the guide to the proper diameter! A burnishing tool has smoothed, rounded ridges (as opposed to "cutting edged" ridges) the length of the tool. The tool "pushes" (or rolls) the knurled ridges outward (the knurler pushes the metal inward). The burnishing tool does not take any material off the guide's walls.

Anyway, you should NOT use a reamer on the guide. A reamer is for the purpose of resizing a replacement guide. When a guide is replaced, the "press fit" (interference size) will squeeze a new guide to an undersize diameter. Only then do you remove metal to bring the inside of the guide back to the proper size.

*A reamer is for replacement guides!

*A burnisher is for knurled guides!

(this is all clear as mud, right! :)

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Chris-se-ILL

08-08-2003 15:06:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: knurling tools in reply to Chris-se-ILL, 08-08-2003 14:29:34  
Almost forgot.... (just incase you and others didn't know) finish ALL guide work COMPLETELY before grinding or cutting any valve seats! Any work you do to the guides WILL affect the way a valve face contacts the seat. I have seen people grind the seats for the valves and then decide to bring the heads into the shop for "some guide work"... not good! They get mad when you tell them they need to have the valve seats re-cut when the guide work is done.

----- ----- -----

BTW, for best results on cutting valve seats... use a 3 angle cut.

Example; on a 45 degree face, cut the 45 degree angle first (only enough to clean the face of the seat). Then use prussian blue (we used to use a magic marker) to "blue" the 45 degree face. Now cut a 60 degree and a 15 degree angle on the same seat to clean the edges (also makes the seat of uniform width the entire circumference of the seat) of the 45 degree cut. This 3 cut process will narrow the 45 degree face to the proper size. The "rule of thumb" that we used (on the 45 degree face; i.e. middle face) was a .040in. width face for intake valves and .060in. width for the exhaust valves. As you are cutting the seats... "blue" the valve face (after it is properly ground) and check to see that the 45 degree seat face is contacting the valve face (by "popping" the valve against the seat face), in the middle of the valve face.

If you use stones for grinding the seats... reface the stones often (personally, I don't like using stones for facing seats! I like carbide cutters, that cut all three angles at one time).

*After you cut the seats, lap the valves with a fine valve lapping compound... then wipe out ALL lapping compound... put the valve back in the guide and use Marvel Mystery Oil to "oil lap" the valve again (just MMO, no compound). Oil lapping will remove any residual grinding compound from the face of the seat and smooth the seat better than just using compound by itself.

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Chris-se-ILL

08-08-2003 08:42:00




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 Re: Re: knurling tools in reply to Chris-se-ILL, 08-08-2003 08:32:55  
BTW... we always "LOVED" {hint of sarcasm here} to have people bring heads (blocks, cranks, pistons, etcetera....) into the shop to be "repaired" after they tried saving money by doing the work themselves!!!

Our shop rate went up by about $10 an hour for "those" projects!

:-)

Chris-se-ILL



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TimC

08-07-2003 20:09:08




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 Re: knurling tools in reply to rustyfarmall, 08-07-2003 07:59:07  
It seems that method has gone out of style. I axed a machinist if he ever did that and he said the bronze wall guides are so easy and quick to install nobody (in full blown machine shops) does that any more. Bronze is so easy on valve stems (especially for race setups) he wouldn't consider any thing else. I just assumed it was still being done also.



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http://www.goodson.com

08-07-2003 19:14:23




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 Re: knurling tools in reply to rustyfarmall, 08-07-2003 07:59:07  
Link
knurling arbor about $70
guide reamer about 40
cutting oil ?
they have online catalog and paper catalog



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Mike

08-07-2003 17:25:16




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 Re: knurling tools in reply to rustyfarmall, 08-07-2003 07:59:07  
Kwik-Way makes a large variety of automotive machine tools.Check with an automotive machine shop where they get theirs.



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Steven Nederhiser

08-17-2003 20:50:46




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 Re: Re: knurling tools in reply to Mike , 08-07-2003 17:25:16  
Hello Rustyfarmall;
The way to go on this is to replace the valve guides. Most tractor and industrial engines use guides that press out. Press in the new guides and ream or hone out to the correct size. If you have cast in guides I would recommend guide liners. I have a UTP guide knurling setup that works great but it is very expensive. I figure that I have about a $1000.00 wrapped up in my set. Much cheaper to go to a good automotive machine shop and have the work done!

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