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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS

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EIL

07-28-2003 14:49:55




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Hello. I have two questions. First, what is the difference between proto and proto challenger tools? Do the proto challenger tools have a lifetime warrenty? Would they replace a proto challenger tool with a regular proto? Second, I have been in a vo-tech school for over a year and I have about 8 months left and I am wondering what tools I will need. I already have a bunch of screwdrivers, nut drivers, all the 1/4" drive and 3/8" drive sockets I will ever need, standard wrenches up to 1 1/4" and metric up to 32mm. And all the pliers and locking pliers I need. I will soon be getting a bunch of 6 point 1/2" drive sockets. Is there any tools that I left out that I will definitely need. The coarse that I am in is diesel mechanic. I hope to get a job at my local case and kubota dealership, but if not, I will probably work in oilfield. Up to what size wrenches and sockets should I get? I mostly have craftsman tools with a few snap-on and a couple of these proto challenger. I also plan on getting a good 1/2" impact. I also have metric impact sockets from 10mm up to 46mm and standard impact sockets from 7/16 up to 1 1/16. One last wuestion, is it neccessary to get 12 point sockets? Are 12 point bolts common? Thank you everyone for you help and time. This soon to be mechanic really appreciates it.

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Hal/WA

07-31-2003 18:15:42




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 Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 14:49:55  
I have never tried to make a living turning wrenches, but have fooled around with mechanics for more than 40 years as a hobby and on the farm. In my experience, you never get all the tools you need.....there is always something that would make a given job a bit easier or less of a hassle. Over the years I have accumulated thousands of dollars worth of tools of all kinds. I have favored Craftsman hand tools, because of their reasonable cost, reasonable quality and, in my experience, unconditional replacement guarantee. I have broken a number of Craftsman hand tools and have never been questioned at all about how I broke them. I have worn out a few too--all were replaced with similar models. I wish the Craftsman power tools were as good as the hand tools.

If I had it to do over, rather than starting my tool hoard with a small mechanics tool set and adding tools bit by bit, I would save up my money, or even make payments on a large Craftsman tool assortment like those that are sold in the Sears tool catalogue. While there might be some stuff in those assortments that I would never use, looking at my inventory, I have bought most of the tools contained in the biggest tool assortment deals over the years. I would guess that I have paid more for my tools than I would of if I had bought a large assortment. More bang for the buck.

One of my best friend is a diesel mechanic. He has lots of the high end tools and has accumulated them over about the same time I have. He says that sometimes he has run into situations where there is insufficient clearance for a thick Craftsman socket to fit, while a good Mac or Proto or ---- socket that is a little thinner will work fine, with similar or greater strength. On the other hand, once he needed a very large (I don't remember just how big) socket for a truck he was working on. He ordered that single socket delivered from NAPA, but sent it back because it cost well over $100 for a single socket!!! He said he ended up buying an imported set of huge sockets which cost only a little more than the single socket. He also has many Craftsman and off-brand tools, but he tries to buy very good quality for the tools he uses all the time. I am guessing that it would cost $25K to $50K to replace all of my friends tools, but he has made a very successful career as a mechanic.

One very important way of cutting down on tool costs is being very careful to always make sure that you pick up all of your tools when you finish a job. A shipped tool won't do you any good, and usually a single tool replacement is the most expensive way to buy them. We all lose some tools, but it is a good idea to make it a priority to collect them and keep track of them.

I like to have both 6 point and 12 point sockets. Sometimes it is a lot easier to get a 12 point to go on a bolt or nut if clearance is tight.

Good luck, I hope you enjoy your time as a diesel mechanic.

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TimC

07-30-2003 13:50:15




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 Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 14:49:55  
A decent Volt/Ohm meter. Test light/w lamp.
Cheap calipers. Cheap Micrometers. Set of jumper cables made from heavy welding leads. One roll of bailing wire and a ball pen hammer. Starting fluid.

If you just want to work in a nice clean shop and not get very dirty omit everything except the cals and mics.

If you want to be the guy that fixes everything anywhere any time you will be collecting tools for years.

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Mike

07-29-2003 21:28:46




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 Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 14:49:55  
One tool I could not work with out is a Snap-On
ratcheting screwdriver,I have gotten more stuff apart with that one screwdriver than any other.
Don't fall for the imitations here spend the dollars and have great tool to rely on.
Don't forget about pawn shops,you will find some decent stuff there just gotta keep your eyes open and look for quality.
Glad to see your kind of enthusiasium.

Good luck.

Mike.

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Richard

07-29-2003 20:33:14




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 Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 14:49:55  
12 point bolts are becoming much more common on all of the new industrial engines, not too many on the older engines. The japanese also use a lot of metric 12 pt. bolts. I work on diesel and natural gas engines from 26hp to 6000 hp and I would be in a pretty bad spot without 12 pt sockets.

Jap Tools, well, they also make good tools, just as good if not better than Snap On, problem is, we don't see that version of their tools here. If you decide to buy Japan or China made tools, be very careful, and never put yourself in a position your going to get hurt trying to break a tough bolt or nut loose. That rule always applies to any tool though.

Good Luck, good to see new blood coming into the mechanical field. Seems to be a dying breed.

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Ken C

07-29-2003 18:53:38




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 Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 14:49:55  
You are off to a good start, I turn wrenches for a living too. I am kinda lke John, must have dozens of different brands of tools. Couple of things, first, you can't have too many pry bars and alighnment punches. My smallest pry bar is about 6"long, the largest, 5 ft. Second, Hammers, my most used ones - 3lb "single jack" and my 8lb. sledge, also own a 12 lb, sure hate it when that one has to come out of the box ! I use some Taiwan wrenches once in awhile, you will find out that you will have to take a chop saw to a wrench occasionally. Better to chop up a $30 wrench than a $130 one. Another source of good tools is E-Bay. And don't worry about borrowing stuff, you will find most mechanics will help the "new kid", we've all been there Ken C.

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EIL

07-29-2003 06:18:17




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 Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 14:49:55  
I just saw a 3/4" drive impact socket set on sears web site. The brand was armstrong and for 14 sockets it costs $180. I am 17 years old and only get what birthday and christmas money will afford so I guess those sockets will have to wait until I am working. My birthday is in 10 days so I will be getting a 25 piece 1/2" drive 6 point socket set, a 1/2" drive flex ratchet and a 3/8" drive flex ratchet. For christmas I will probably get the 53 piece 12 point set. I also eventually plan on getting a set of punches, chizels, files, hammers, pipe wrenches, allen wrenches, ase and metric tap and die sets, and a few large tools that are handy to have. My teacher showed the class his tool box a while back and he said that everything including the box and all the tools costed him about $3,000. I thought wow that's a lot of money, but then I soon realized that 90% of his tools came from wal-mart and harbor freight. Nearly all his tools say taiwan. He has a few craftsman and snap-on, but not much. I just prefer to be prepared for most jobs instead of using someone elses tools which I hate to do probably as much as they hate me using them. After I collect all the hand tools I will need for now, then I will move on to impacts and air ratchets. I will probably get some of those wobble extensions as mentioned. Anything else that anyone can think of that a new mechanic about to start out would need? Thanks for everyone's help.

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Chris-se-ILL

07-29-2003 07:35:31




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 Re: Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-29-2003 06:18:17  
Don't be shy, about making a (prioritized) list of tools that you think are necessary for your future employment. Many family members, when shopping for tools to give as gifts, are baffled by all the tools on display. I have seen many people just grab something (anything) that strikes their fancy ("cute" sells, but is often useless). Another thought.... suggest they buy a gift card for a particular store that carries the tools that you desire. Often gift cards can be combined to afford a high priced tool.

There is nothing wrong with buying Taiwan made tools... your tool box will not puke them out. Also cheapies can get you by till you save the money to buy the nice stuff. I have Snap-on, Matco, and many, many Craftsman but still buy a lot of "tiawanese cheapies." I use the cheap stuff in the tractor tool boxes. I found that planting tools in the field, does not produce a crop of little wrenches... so I try to only plant cheap tools. Mechanics will loose tools... it is a given... loose a little ol' $35 dollar Snap-On wrench and you will be sick for a few days! I admit that the pricey tools most often, do fit the bolt heads better (less rounded off bolts) and do not give as much aggrevation as cheapies. (Hint: don't go the cheap route on punches, chisels, drifts, drill bits... and especially on tap & die sets!!!! Any "cutting tool" should be of high quality... no exceptions!)

I have never had a problem with the replacement warranty for Craftsman wrenches and sockets. I have busted MANY ratchets and sockets. Sears just replaced (free, no hassle) a socket, that belonged in a set that I bought in '78 when I went to Auto-Diesel Tech School).

BTW, My 18 year old son is going to an auto-tech school this next month. The school however has a tool rental agreement with a local supplier, where for $25 a semester the students can rent a modest box of tools for the courses. That way the students don't have to worry about their personal tools walking off.

Again Good luck!

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EIL

07-29-2003 22:28:53




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 Re: Re: Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to Chris-se-ILL, 07-29-2003 07:35:31  
The good thing about the vo-tech school that I go to is that they provide all the tools we need, we each have a small box with the normal tools that we need. One other question that I've been wondering, what tools do the shop that you work at have and what tools are you expected to have, such as a drill or grinder, etc. Thanks again!!!!!



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Chris-se-ILL

07-30-2003 06:32:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-29-2003 22:28:53  
EIL, I did not intend to give you the impression that I still work as an auto-diesel mechanic. I quit the garage/mechanic employment in '84 to return to the farm and become the owner/operator, since Dad was going to retire in '87. Every day, I use much of what I learned from my mechanic training and on-the-job experience! Some of the others on this forum are still employeed as mechanics in the industry and should answer your question.

However, at both shops that I DID work at... the power tools were provided (they had a tool room). One of the major diesel garages in this area also provides many of the major power tools and specialty tools for the mechanics to use. Most of the mechanic's just want their own hand tools (especially wrenches and sockets) and personal tools for conveinient use.

As for my personal tools here on the farm, I have equiped my shop with more tools and equipment than most mechanics will ever own. I even bought a used "Sun - tune up analyzer" and restored it to fully working condition. Also a "Sun- VAT40" and also a "VAT20" {volt-amp} battery/alternator/generator testers. Since I returned to the farm, we hardly take any equipment to a dealership for repairs. My schooling has paid for itself many times over, just in savings on tractor repairs.

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Jerry L /az

07-29-2003 03:04:35




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 Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 14:49:55  
sounds like you'r on you'r way I agree with the other posts. get it as you need it watch the warrenties craftsman is a good tool BUT they won't stand behind the warrrenty if they find your are useing the tool for commercial use the. (fine print says for home shop use only) I worked on heavy cranes in the feild and you'll wish you had a certain tool good luck in you'r endevers ..... ...Jer

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Bill

07-29-2003 00:18:22




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 Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 14:49:55  

12 POINT BOLTS ! YEAR IN VOTEC ? you beter find another vocation !!!



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big fred

07-29-2003 11:13:19




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 Re: Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to Bill , 07-29-2003 00:18:22  
A 12 point head is common on tension head bolts. Tension head bolts are intended to be loaded in tension instead of shear. I would imagine that diesel trucks and tractors wouldn't have an awful lot of 12-point, but if you were pursuing a career as an aircraft airframe mechanic, you bet you'd need 'em. My credentials? Not much, just 22 years as a design engineer in the aircraft and aerospace industry.

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12 pts are common

07-29-2003 06:52:58




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 Re: Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to Bill , 07-29-2003 00:18:22  
alot of equipment uses 12 pt bolts inside the engine, like headbolts,also alot of aircraft stuff, looks like you tried to point out that he was a dummy but its you should have spent more time in trade school i think, markct



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jokers

07-29-2003 01:41:49




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 Re: Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to Bill , 07-29-2003 00:18:22  
Bill, you`ve never seen a 12pt bolt head? Maybe you didn`t recognize what you were looking at? I`ve seen plenty in Ford and Dodge drivelines. 12mm 12pt is a size that comes to mind.

I don`t see where a guy would need too many 12pt sockets if you have a full compliment of six points which grip better.

Russ



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hjp

07-31-2003 21:02:41




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 Re: Re: Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to jokers, 07-29-2003 01:41:49  
12 pt is also know as (TRIPLE SQUARE) in snap on language,found on retaining u joint straps and alot of metric/standard head bolt applications



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Roger

07-29-2003 15:37:08




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 Re: Re: Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to jokers, 07-29-2003 01:41:49  
While I agree 12pt bolts are rare, when you come across one and you don't have a socket to remove it, it can be a real bear trying to use a box end wrench instead, if it is in tight quarters. I bought a set of 12 point sockets from a pawn shop, from 3/8" to 1 1/8" for $30. They were all there loose, so I had to dig through them to find them all. This was a bonus however, since they were all priced equally, so I built up a set of Craftsman, Proto, Challenger, ITC, Husky and other decent sockets for much less than a seat of cheapies would have cost. 1/2" drive too!

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John Ne.

07-28-2003 23:12:30




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 Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 14:49:55  
Sounds like you got a good start, do you have some 3/8 and 1/2 inch drive wobbly impacts? Deepwell and shallow? Use these much more often than the chrome ones. I have and use 1/2inch sockets up to 1.5 inches often. I work on cars and light trucks, over 30 years now, and some tools I've had since the beginning. Most guys have their own tap and die sets, standard and metric, and pullers, and pressure gauge sets, for oil and fuel. 1/2impact is just the beginning, also need 3/8 impact, and air ratchet, and most have a 1/4inch air ratchet too. Some of the extra large screwdrivers/prybars with the curved ends, are in constant use, up wards of 3 feet in length. Torx bits, male and female. Also 3/8 and 1/2inch air drills, and full set of drill bits. Didn't see you mention punches and chisels. And a set of brass punches, and roll pin punches, all things I have in my boxes. One thing I wouldn't get wrapped up with is keeping everything one brand. To date I have almost 30 brands of tools in my main box, and they all live together very well. Plus its easier to grab a wrench, when certain sizes are of varying brands. Picks? awls? well, this is a start. One fellow totaled up his box and tools at replacement cost right at 42,000 dollars, so it never ends. John in Ne.

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EIL

07-28-2003 21:54:20




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 Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 14:49:55  
I went through a Vo-Tech "Auto and Diesel School" in the late '70's (graduated top of my class). You are on the right track with your tools. Work your way up to the larger (3/4 inch drive sockets and air wrench) tools. BUT, make sure that you have adequate 1/2 inch drive sockets (impact and regular). In my experience I use the 1/2" drives the most, but really appreciate the 3/4" drive for hard to turn big bolts. I also bought a 1" drive ratchet-wrench and breaker-bar with a 1" to 3/4" drive adapter. The 1" drive ratchet is great for stubborn bolts (better than the 3/4 rachet). Do not worry about having all the tools you think you may need to start out with.... the shop and fellow mechanics will usually have the right tools if you need them. I have built my tool boxes up over 20 years and still need more tools! :-) Snap-On, Matco and some of the other "truck" salesmen will have high quality tools... but the prices will eat you up!!! Also be carful about running a high balance on these tool trucks... you can get suckered in to some major financial debt in a hurry (the voice of experience) These salesmen are VERY eager to sell you tools "on credit," the only hard part is finally getting it paid off!!! It is almost impossible to pay the loan off! If you want something, start off by saving your money till you can pay cash (or check) don't start out on a "major" line of credit (I know this from experience).

Good luck with school! I wish you well in your field!

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Chris-se-ILL

07-28-2003 21:57:36




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 Re: Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 21:54:20  
Hey the site put the wrong name in the "byLine" ....I am not trying to impersonate anyone here!

I made the previous post... Chris-se-ILL



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hjp

07-28-2003 21:06:09




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 Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 14:49:55  
I would recomend a large "master" set of some kind,craftsman, or check your local snap-on,mac,matco for repossed tools and boxes. I agree ,save your money and invest in 3/4 drive sockets in impact only. You are still going to have to buy speciality tools for allison,detroit,cummings,fiat,perkins ,mercedes and cat. Just remember when you think you have it all(hex to tamperproof/torx to tamperproof/tri-wing ect.) the manufactures do not like anyone besides there own service people working on there stuff and tool them selves for such.

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CPOH

07-28-2003 20:47:56




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 Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 14:49:55  
well, there shouldn't be too terribly many specialty tools you would need. The thing I think you would need the most of in this day and age is the metric stuff. get some big 3/4 inch drive sockets, and consider a 3/4 in impact for big jobs like taking axle duals on and off. I bought my dad one from work (tsc) for father's day, and man, we don't know what we did without that thing. we had a 4ft bar on the bolts for the axle duals on the JD 7710 tightening them down, and that wrench laughed at them. Find a bolt that's frozen in? no problem, hook the 3/4 impact up and break the head off!!LOL, in all seriousness though, we havent found but one bolt, that is bent, that won't come out by that impact.

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DumOleBob

07-28-2003 19:44:29




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 Re: A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS in reply to EIL, 07-28-2003 14:49:55  
You've asked some great questions! And, you are off to a good start! I'll bow out of the responses, except to say get yourself the best quality air tools your budget will allow. Now you don't need to go bankrupt in the process, but don't fall for the el cheapos!

I'll bet you are going to be one He## of a mechanic! Go for it!



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