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R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12

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DM -IL

07-16-2003 07:12:01




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Have an '90 Taurus that's not cooling well. Does anyone have any experience or comments about buying an upgrade kit and upgrading the system myself?




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Bob

07-21-2003 13:38:01




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 Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to DM -IL, 07-16-2003 07:12:01  
A few quick notes. The longer you vacuum the system down (as in 24 hours if you are doingit yourself), the colder your vent temp will be.

If after you are done, all is working as should, and you are not getting good cold air, add either a second fan or some kind of air scoop to increase the air flow.

With R-12, your system could have quite a bit of air, or over/undercharged and still work. Not so with R-134a. Air in they will kill any cooling effect, and if your charge is +/- 4 oz, you have warm air in your vents.

Stay away from anything that is not R-12 or R-134a. Long list of reasons but mostly because no shop will be able to work on it in the future.

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JDGnut

07-19-2003 15:21:27




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 Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to DM -IL, 07-16-2003 07:12:01  
I think you have some good info from below... As others have stressed... flush.. flush.. and flush again.. get that old minerial oil out of the system... We recomemend flushing with a solovent or a cheaper flush.. then go back with a high quality flush to get an residue out of the system.. (The Dura 141 or Genasolve 2004 are what we recomemend.) If you are going to to reuse the compressor, spend some time flushing the compressor.. stand the compressor up and let the oil run out.. turn the compressor over to help get the oil out.. add some flush.. turn it over a few more times... If U replace the compressor.. check to see if the new compressor has.. or does not have oil... many times systems get over charged with oil...
When adding the 134a add about 90% of the R12 charge.. I like about 85%... if you get any lower than that you will still have good duct temps.. but you will start sacrificing your compressor.. in keeping the compressor cool.. and oil flowing good through the system.... Last thing.. make sure the condensor is clean.. on the outside... wash it with soap and water... Most R12 condensors are a little on the small size for the 134a systems...
Good Luck,
JDGnut

(becareful on some of the Blends and other mix replacements... many contain propane.. which uses about 25% the volume as an R12 charge...)

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T_Bone

07-18-2003 11:09:13




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 Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to DM -IL, 07-16-2003 07:12:01  
Hi guys,

Look at using R406 as it is a direct replacement for R12 and has extreamly close condensing temps as R12. This means it'll have the same preformance charistics as R12.

R134a has slightly different condensing temps and is why it does not preform well on some systems without modifications.

Never mix refrigerant of any type. This is a big headache for even the most experienced refer man. I don't care what the mfg says. Why? You have two differnet gasses that is trying to condense at two differant pressures inside the same system. One will always be lagging behind the other and creates bubbles with-in the other gas. This would preform simular to a undercharged system. So most refer men would then add more refrigerant thus over charging the system with-out any increase in preformance.

T_Bone

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Revredneck

07-17-2003 07:27:48




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 Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to DM -IL, 07-16-2003 07:12:01  
I have converted dozens of GM vehicles with good success over the years. My own 87 S10 runs R134a and cools pretty well. The Ford experts seem to have different results than we Chevy guys. I have another suggestion that might work for you. Just last week I replaced the compressor on my 92 Astro van (still was running R12), and instead of converting to R134a, I put in an alternative refrigerant called R12a. I bought the stuff at the Farm Machinery Show in Louisville last winter because some farmer friends told me that it works well in their tractors and is much cheaper than R12. It works as well as the R12 did as far as I can tell, but you have to be careful to put the conversion sticker (included in the case) on so someone else won't mess up later. It only uses about 1/3 as much material as the original in actual weight, but each can only contains about 6 oz. of the stuff, so it's no big deal. I am told it is less likely to leak because its molecular makeup is larger. It cost me $5 a can, which is pretty close to the price of R134a, and I didn't have to do any oil changing or messy flushing. I am very happy with it, you may be too. Here is the website for the manufacturer.
www.duracoolusa.com Good Luck and God Bless, Tommy

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Roger

07-20-2003 09:45:25




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 Re: Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to Revredneck, 07-17-2003 07:27:48  
I have also used Duracool in my 87 Mustang. It is a drop-in replacement for R12. Cheap and easy. No oil changing or flushing. Just be sure to evacuate the old refrigerant first.



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Shep Va

07-18-2003 10:17:28




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 Re: Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to Revredneck, 07-17-2003 07:27:48  
I have a combine that is R-12 and not cooling well, the low pressure light is coming on, so it needs recharged. I was thinking of switching to 134a but checked out this website and am interested in this stuff. You can leave your R-12 system intact and just add this R-12a and it works???? This sounds too good to be true, are you getting along with it Ok??? What all did you buy to do the recharge??

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Roger

07-20-2003 15:15:11




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 Re: Re: Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to Shep Va, 07-18-2003 10:17:28  
I bought the hose kit and the adapter to go from R134a thread to R12 thread and 2 cans of Duracool. My system was not working so I decided to give it a shot and it worked out fine. It takes about 30% of the volume of R12 to do the same job. I didn't have any gauges, I just added the coolant slowly till I thought the ac clutch was cycling properly. I bought my system at a filter supply shop in Edmonton, Alberta, which, coincidentally, is where Duracool is produced. It was less than $100 CAN for the kit and the 2 cans of coolant.

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kyhayman

07-16-2003 19:46:30




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 Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to DM -IL, 07-16-2003 07:12:01  
Talk to a local a/c guy and see what he will recharge R12 for. I have a 7710 Ford that is converted. My vehicles came R134 standard. This past spring he came out for my annual charge on the tractor. Told me that R12 had at 1 time been up to $1000 for a 30# can, now it was back down under $200. Seems everybody has changed over. If I hadnt changed the tractor over he could put R12 in for $3 a pound more than 134 and it cools a heck of a lot better.

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Gary in IL

07-16-2003 18:46:20




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 Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to DM -IL, 07-16-2003 07:12:01  
a couple of things to watch for:

1) some Ford compressors will not take the higher pressures associated with 134a

2) new accumulator and replace all accessible O-rings with the 134a type

3) flush out the rest of the system

4) add new compatible oil

5) charge till you get approximately 45 psi on the low side with the system on 'max air' and with a window fan blowing thru the condenser

6) you should see approximately 50-degree air out the vents afer the vehicle interior cools off

7) WATCH THE HIGH-SIDE PRESSURE !!! it can go sky-high without proper air-flow thru the condenser

as a general rule, GM's convert very well, Ford's are 'fair', and Mopars are pretty much a lost cause

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forgetful in IL

07-16-2003 18:48:33




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 Re: Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to Gary in IL, 07-16-2003 18:46:20  
it is mandatory that you pump it down for at least 2 hours, 4 or more is better

you need to allow ALL the R-12 to boil out of the oil, because vapor pressures are 'additive'..... .which is not a good thing for the compressor



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TO-35Man

07-16-2003 11:58:38




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 Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to DM -IL, 07-16-2003 07:12:01  
At our commerical shop here in Ga. we retro 2to3 units a week during the summer months.Sucess rate is 95 percent. Things to do on your Ford,Replace the factory o-rings with 134 comp. new ones,most part stores carry them. Replace the Accumalator ,
While you have system open remove ac lines from compressor, and flush system thourghly with ac flush only"it leaves no residue" I cannot stress this enough. Use the reto 134 oil,and lastly do a proper vaccum on the system a quicky 20min vac will not help the ac performace,Min. we vaccum is 1hr. to 2 hrs. depending on the unit. Lastly the 134 charge is critical start with 85 percent of system cap. Then add if you need to. Some take a little more. Best way is use scales to charge, if you have none simple math will get you close enough Then use your gages to verify .
Hope this helps you...if you have futher question shoot me an email I'll be glad to help...

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mixed success

07-16-2003 08:20:26




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 Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to DM -IL, 07-16-2003 07:12:01  
I did three R12 to R134a conversions myself last summer. Borrowed a vacuum pump and gage set, bought the kits and went at it. Two worked out fine and are cooling great a year later. The third worked for a few days then crapped out. The local garage later determined the expansion valve had failed. Don't know whether it was the result of the conversion, or the valve was just ready to fail anyway. Anyway $190 later the A/C is again working OK. However doesn't seem to cool as well as it did on R12.

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Ben in KY

07-16-2003 11:02:17




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 Re: Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to mixed success, 07-16-2003 08:20:26  
Most R12 to R134 upgrades will not cool as well with R134. The systems were not designed for it. Most will work ok in moderate climates, but I would not recommend it in Florida or someplace like that.



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CNKS

07-16-2003 17:58:42




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 Re: Re: Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to Ben in KY, 07-16-2003 11:02:17  
I have a 1992 GMC pickup. Had it converted to 134a, last January, yup in the middle of the winter. Was in Wichita, KS the last couple of days. 109 degrees -- the official NWS temperature, not on the roof of some bank. No it doesn't cool quite as well, main problem is it takes a long time to cool a hot vehicle, have to run blower on highest setting more often. But, it does work.



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Alton

07-21-2003 16:17:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: R134a refrigerant upgrade from R12 in reply to CNKS, 07-16-2003 17:58:42  
on some of the systems you have to change the cycling switch so to get lower cylcling pressures this helps the cooling problem



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