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Starting capacitor going bad in submersible pump

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Hal/WA

06-28-2003 21:21:31




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I have had a 1 horse Grundfos submersible pump in my well for about 10 years with few problems. About 2 weeks ago, I found that I had no water pressure. In the pumphouse, I found that both fuses were fine, but about every 30 seconds, a relay in the pump control box would make a noise and the pump would sound like it was trying to start, but then what sounded like a circuit breaker tripping would come from the pump control box. After about another 30 seconds, the same sequence would happen.

I contacted a friend of mine who works on wells and who sold me the pump. He said it sounds like it was either the relay or the capacitor. He had both and told me to try replacing them. Back at home, I first installe the replacement relay. It sequenced the same as before. I then put in the replacement capacitor and the pump worked fine, as it had before the trouble.

Last night the same thing happened. I had another replacement capacitor and got my water going quickly.

But since the problem has happened twice, I wonder if there is some underlying problem that is causing the capacitors to go bad. I have dealt with all the wiring on my place successfully, but really am not an electrician. I am hoping someone who is a professional, or who has experience with capacitor start motors can give me a good idea where to look for problems.

Obviously the pump is not new and has served us well for years. It sounds fine through the piping and pumps water very well. Is the capacitor problem a symptom of the pump motor wearing out?

I took ohm meter readings on the 3 wires to the pump. None of them showed any grounding, which surprized me. I thought there would be some small reading to ground on at least one of them. There were readings between the 3 wires, with some resistance.

Any ideas on why my capacitors are going bad? They arent popping explosively, just don't work any more.

Thanks for your help!

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maksj

07-01-2003 16:08:34




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 Re: Starting capacitor going bad in submersible pu in reply to Hal/WA, 06-28-2003 21:21:31  
Just curious about the pressure tank? Is the system areoted or is it a bladder tank? This problem is usually found by opening a spigot and the pump turning on quickly(short cycling)this usually knocks out the pressure switch first and then the starting relay tho. Good Luck



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Hal/WA

07-03-2003 16:44:04




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 Re: Re: Starting capacitor going bad in submersibl in reply to maksj, 07-01-2003 16:08:34  
No the bladder tank is good. I had to replace it 2 or 3 years ago, when my old tank bladder ruptured and then it did short cycle for a few days. Another problem I had a year or 2 before that was that the check valve in the pump failed and then the water would run back out of the pressure tank back down in the well as soon as the pump motor stopped. It cycled like that a couple of days and really made the water dirty. I suspect that was very hard on the pump, as the volume has never been as great as it was before that problem. It was an easy fix by adding a check valve in the line just above the pump. I would always add an external check valve in any new pump installation I ever do.

I think a new pump will be in next months budjet. I have not popped any more capacitors, but now have a spare that is slightly higher rated. I just don't want to be without water very long if I can help it. Wish me luck!

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Hal/WA

07-01-2003 00:08:44




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 Re: Starting capacitor going bad in submersible pu in reply to Hal/WA, 06-28-2003 21:21:31  
Thanks for the responses everyone! I have been away from home a couple of days helping a friend move. The pump has worked while I was gone.

I think that tomorrow I will go to town and buy a couple of new capacitors and a new relay, so I have them on hand. The second capacitor that quit was used, as is the one in there now. I pump a fair amount of water, but I think I will adjust my sprinkling so the pump seldom stops and starts.

If my system eats a new capacitor after I also add a new relay, I will just replace the pump. The way things go for me, I guess I better put it in the budget for the next couple of months. Nothing lasts forever.... Thanks again for your interesting replies. Hal/WA

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Bill

06-30-2003 18:19:45




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 Re: Starting capacitor going bad in submersible pu in reply to Hal/WA, 06-28-2003 21:21:31  
Hal, Its time to put a new motor on your pump or replace the whole thing, you have a problem in the windings of the motor drawing too much current. good luck



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Central Minnesota

06-30-2003 05:37:32




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 Re: Starting capacitor going bad in submersible pu in reply to Hal/WA, 06-28-2003 21:21:31  
I always replace the capacitor and starting relay as a unit. Caps. die a premature death if 1. they are energised in the starting circuit too long or 2. if the current during start is too high. The starting relay is calibrated for a specific HP motor starting current so be sure to get the correct one. Once you've changed them, test the motor current (FLA stamped on the nameplate)with a clamp-on ammeter. Current should be less than or equal to the FLA on the plate. If not, then you need to decide if your pump bearings are going out or if you are pumping sand. Sand is bad because is settles into the pump vanes when the pump stops and jams them. This is especially true if the system does not have a check valve right above the pump. Good luck from your friendly electrical contractor.

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evielboweviel

06-29-2003 16:51:43




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 Re: Starting capacitor going bad in submersible pu in reply to Hal/WA, 06-28-2003 21:21:31  
recomend you schedule pulling the pump soon and having it serviced



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Roger

06-29-2003 16:14:35




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 Re: Starting capacitor going bad in submersible pu in reply to Hal/WA, 06-28-2003 21:21:31  
While I have no experience with submersible pumps of any type, I have experienced the same problem with compressors when the start switch inside the motor fails to disengage. The capacitors remain a part of the circuit all the while the motor is running. They get overloaded, if that's the correct term, overheat and cook out all the electrolytic material inside them. While you can smell them overheating on a compressor motor, obviously with a pump it would be much harder. Usually, one of the springs in the centrifugal switch has broken and the switch no longer disengages. Just an idea.

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Bus Driver

06-30-2003 04:19:46




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 Re: Re: Starting capacitor going bad in submersibl in reply to Roger, 06-29-2003 16:14:35  
The starting switch may be just a timing relay that energizes the starting circuit for a preset time. For a pump, the manufacturer could determine beforehand the time required for the pump to reach running speed and use a timer suitable for that. But if the third and fourth capacitor fail, then the problem indeed could be with the starting circuit.



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Bus Driver

06-29-2003 11:38:47




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 Re: Starting capacitor going bad in submersible pu in reply to Hal/WA, 06-28-2003 21:21:31  
Is the capacitor round with black plastic housing? MFD rating of a few hundred? If so, it is an electrolytic capacitor. They only last a limited time, whether used or not- and I suspect that they may last longer if used moderately than if sitting on a shelf, but I cannot prove this. I think that both capacitors just died natural deaths. I might even go ahead and buy a replacement to have on hand- even though it might fail while stored and might not be needed during the life of this pump. Not a big money investment and handy if the capacitor fails on a Sunday morning.

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Motor Mania

08-13-2003 16:16:55




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 Re: Re: Starting capacitor going bad in submersibl in reply to Bus Driver, 06-29-2003 11:38:47  
I only saw two feasible answers out of all of these responses. I was amused by the "shelf life" comment of capacitors... I'll have to check the born on dating on my six pack of caps in the garage. (Wouldn't want any spoiled ones.) Possibility #1 is that your starting winding has shorted a few windings through time from excessive heat, which would create a higher starting current for a prolonged time. Checking continuity through a starting winding can't be done through the power cord because the running winding is in parallel with the start winding and the capacitor is in series with the start winding. The centrifical switch removes the start winding from the circuit once the pump is at speed. (Therefore the centrifical switch is closed when the motor is slow, or not turning at all.) The purpose of the capacitor is to make the start winding 90 degrees out of phase with the running winding... not to store up some supernatural boost of energy and explode it through the windings. (Basic AC theory) Possibility #2 is less likey, but involves the centrifical switch not disengaging the starting winding, thus wearing out the capacitor... I doubt this one very much because start windings are extremely light gauge compared to their main winding cousin and usually burn up totally after a few minutes of continuous operation. If that happens, you can put all of the expired shelf life caps you want into it and it's not gonna start.

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Bill in TN

06-29-2003 06:08:53




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 Re: Starting capacitor going bad in submersible pu in reply to Hal/WA, 06-28-2003 21:21:31  
Homotrons?



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