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Another compressor question:

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Dick in Ore..

06-23-2003 17:52:22




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Recently purchased an Ingersoll-Rand compressor. It's a model 64, Size, 6 X 3 1/2 X 5, ser.# 30T-77274. It had a 9.5 Wesconsin engine on it. I have problems starting the the engine with the belts on. Taking the belts off, the engine starts good. Even opening the relief valve on the compressor doesn't help. Would it be better to install an idler pulley to engage the compressor once the engine is running? Also, what size of electric motor would it take to run this compressor?
Thanks for your input..
Dick

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Roger

06-23-2003 21:46:41




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 Re: Another compressor question: in reply to Dick in Ore.., 06-23-2003 17:52:22  
Did you buy this unit new? It sounds like the engine is way too small for the compressor. By my calculations, it requires about a 15HP electric motor. Usually, a 9.5 HP gas engine would be just about right for a 5HP pump.

Find the displacement of all first stage cylinders.

Divide by 10, since it takes about 1 HP per 10 CID of the FIRST stage cylinders only.

Assuming this pump is a 2 cylinder, we can calculate for just this one cylinder:


Area of the Bore X Stroke / 10

((.7854 x 36) X 5 ) /10

=((28.2744) X 5) /10

= (141.372) /10

= 14.1 HP

If you have a 3 cylinder, you can double that number. This is electric motor HP, not gas.

Since it requires about twice the HP rating when going from electric to gas (probably less actually, but it's a rule of thumb), you would need a very large gas engine to run this pump. A 6" bore and a 5" stroke is getting to be a pretty muscular-sized compressor. Unless, of course, it somehow has a tag from another pump, in which case, you just might get by with attaching a centrifugal clutch pulley on the motor. If there are no head unloaders on the pump, you will definitely need some sort of easy start method for when there is pressure in the tank.

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Dick in Ore..

06-23-2003 22:24:56




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 Re: Re: Another compressor question: in reply to Roger, 06-23-2003 21:46:41  
Thank you for the great information Roger..

The outfit was purchased used, but seems to be in good shape.. I'm sure the ID tag is for this compressor since it is a big unit. Yes the first stage is a larger cylinder than the second stage cylinder. There is an unloader located on the line that goes to the tank, but opening it while trying to start the engine doesn't seem to help. Still too much compression on the compressor. Would it be advisable to have a check valve between the compressor and the tank? How many RPM's do you think would be right for this compressor? Oh, it has a four belts pully on the compressor and engine.

Thanks again Roger for answering my post.. I see you're well versed on all compressors which is a real asset to this forum..

Dick

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Roger

06-24-2003 13:57:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Another compressor question: in reply to Dick in Ore.., 06-23-2003 22:24:56  
Normally, there is always a check valve between the compressor and the tank, however, some manufacturers use the second stage exhaust valve for this purpose to save a few bucks. This is ok as long as the seal is good, otherwise, you have high pressure air leaking into the 2nd stage cylinder which will make it very difficult to start the unit with pressure in the tank. Also, when the compressor unloads, it unloads only as far as the exhaust valve of the 2nd stage, which is not much of a head start for any unit to work with. If it were me, and I wanted to do this as cheaply and easily as possible, I would put in a check valve, and install a tee with a ball valve in the discharge line of the compressor between the pump and the check valve so I could dump air (not close airflow between the pump and tank!). When I was starting the unit, I would open this valve, start the motor and let it warm up for a bit. I would put a muffler in the valve to cut down the noise (the compressor is pumping). This supposes that the motor does not need air to control the throttle, otherwise, you will have to devise some method to keep the revs down while the motor is warming up. When the motor is up to operating temperature, I would close the valve and let the compressor cycle. If the motor cannot turn the pump with the valve open and dumping air, it is too small for this pump. If it cannot achieve cut-out pressure bfore stalling, it is too small for this pump.

The best solution would be to install a centrifugal clutch type pulley on the motor, but I appreciate that it is an expensive option. However, if you install this type of pulley, and you can control the throttle, and your compressor has a centrifugal unloader, you can cycle a gas drive compressor exactly like you would an electric drive machine.

1. The motor starts, revs up, and begins to operate the compressor.
2. Compressor package achieves cut-out pressure.
3. Pilot valve trips, sending air signal to the throttle control.
4. Motor slows down. Clutch disengages.
5. Compressor stops. Centrifugal unloader blows down compressor. Better yet, centrifugal unloader blows down discharge line between compressor and check valve.
6. Motor is idling, Compressor is stopped. Better gas economy and longer life for both motor and compressor is realized.

How does this compressor unload? Unloading is the process of either stopping a turning compressor from pumping air, or blowing down air pressure in a stopped pump between cycles. Does it have a contol valve that throttles down the gas engine? Does it have unloaders on the heads to lift the intake valves (square boxes on the heads with air lines going to them), or does it just discharge air to atmosphere when it reaches cut-out pressure?

From the specs you have given, I believe someone has removed the original motor and replaced it with the 9.5hp. I might be wrong, but I don't think so. If it has run like this, it must be turning very slowly, and you are getting less air than the pump can deliver. Did you see it pumping air in this configuration? I don't mean to be belittling your machine, but it just seems like a pretty hard pull for a 9.5.

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Dick in Ore..

06-24-2003 22:49:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Another compressor question: in reply to Roger, 06-24-2003 13:57:56  
Thanks again Roger for your help..

First, No, the engine that is on the compressor is not original equipment. I think it originally had an electric motor. Later the gas engine was installed.. The man told me it would run it but would take about 10 minutes to fill the air tank, which is huge, to pop off pressure, 120 lbs. The unloader is at the outlet, to tank, of the second stage cylinder. It's a small unloader and when I force it open when trying to start the engine, it doesn't relieve much pressure.
I like your idea of the check valve and the ball valve to unload pressure while starting.
No, it does not have a control valve to throttle down the engine. Only a manual throttle lever. It does have three pop-off valves so it doesn't go over pressure.
Yes, it does release air to the atmosphere when the pressure is reached, with the unloader next to the second stage.
I think I answered all of your question..
Thanks again for your help..
Dick

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Roger

06-25-2003 20:12:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another compressor question: in reply to Dick in Ore.., 06-24-2003 22:49:01  
Given your setup, I'd go the check valve and ball valve route. You can always slow the engine by hand if you need to for startup and shutdown.



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Dick in Ore..

06-25-2003 22:04:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another compressor questio in reply to Roger, 06-25-2003 20:12:57  
Roger,,

I agree.. Once I get it all put together I will let you know how it works.

You have been a great help on this forum for compressor questions. We all really appreciate your help..

Thanks again,,

Dick



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