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Need opinions on insulating a pole building

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luckydog

03-16-2003 19:49:09




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I built a wood frame metal sided pole building (48x72) that I"m going to to have a 32x48 shop in. Thinking about blowing foam insulating but wondering what others would prefer? I"m interested in other thoughts. I live in N Cen In. so it does get pretty cold in the winter. Thanks for any info!! Bill Appleton




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DAVE S.

03-18-2003 17:17:27




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 Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to luckydog, 03-16-2003 19:49:09  
How warm do you need your shop to be! I could see if you are going to have a continuous heat supply all winter long. The main thing is to have a vapor barrier cause these buildings like to sweat. I totaly wrapped my frame work with poly tarps before installing the metal.I heat my 24x32 with a space heater and within 20 min. it's toasty warm on the coldest days. My uncle tried to tell me I was making a mistake by doing this and failed to do so when he built his.Now he has black stained 2x4's inside from condinsation. Also if it rains for many days at a time the roof drips inside like it is leaking,but it's not.

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doug

03-18-2003 08:06:52




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 Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to luckydog, 03-16-2003 19:49:09  
I am going to use rigid foam insulation panels (not batts) in my barn to discourage mice and birds from nesting.

Doug



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Central Minnesota

03-18-2003 08:32:27




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 Re: Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to doug, 03-18-2003 08:06:52  
Doug, You oughta see some of my pictures (sorry not digital) of what rodents will do to rigid foam. You'd be impressed by their (the rodents) willingness to destroy things and their ability to carry out the mission. Seal the wall cavities tight against rodents. They eat electrical cable too if it's in their way.(sometimes if it isn't in their way.) Another problem with exposed foam, either sprayed or rigid is that it is NOT self extinguishing in a fire. Once it starts on fire it give off toxic (very) fumes and bursts into flame. Not a pleasant thought if you have anything of value in your building. CM

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Robert in W. Mi

03-18-2003 10:27:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to Central Minnesota, 03-18-2003 08:32:27  
My brother used rigid foam in his pole barn, (he didn't cover it) The birds got into it and had it all tore up. It was a mess! If the walls ect. aren't sealed, nothing is safe!!! If they are, fiberglass works just fine. I put rigid styrofoam R5 (4x8 panels) under the steel on mine, and then inside i have fiberglass batts in the walls. Then there's 6 mil vapor barrier and OSB over the fiberglass with sheet rock over all that. (in the finished out part) I blew in all the insulation in the ceiling i could get in, being carefull to not block the rafter air ways to the vented eves. The vapor barrier is important in colder climates, but not so much so where the building will have very few heat days. I made sure everything is sealed, and i have no problems!! If i was doing it all over, i'd do the same thing again!! I especially like the styrofoam under the steel. It makes the steel go up easier, and eliminates a lot of cracking and popping noise of the steel as the sun hits it. Robert

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luckydog

03-18-2003 07:40:16




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 Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to luckydog, 03-16-2003 19:49:09  
Thanks All for all the informed info that I recieved. This is why I like this board, for all the informed and experienced people out there!! I will continue to view this posting for anymore responces. PS. I do have a pad of concrete with a floor drain, bevel for a stool and drain for a sink and will be heated. Thank you. Bill Appleton



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Central Minnesota

03-18-2003 07:14:09




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 Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to luckydog, 03-16-2003 19:49:09  
Lucky, 'former lumberyard manager' has good advice and a more thorough explanation than mine. One more item though. An uninsulated slab edge has the highest heat loss per lineal foot in the whole building. I think that it's about 25 watts per lineal foot. (don't quote me on that) Anyway around here we insulate the slab edge with 2" rigid polystyrene to a depth of 4'. Depending on the frost depth in your area you would probably get by with less depth. Good luck on your project.

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Dennis Stoeser

03-17-2003 21:15:36




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 Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to luckydog, 03-16-2003 19:49:09  
Please elaborate on the "wood shop" mentioned. What should be done especially for the wood shop versus any other use? I used "I-beam" floor joists (BCI's) for my loft over my wood shop. I then dropped in fiber board ceiling tiles between the joists. The tiles rest on the lower flange of the joist. Should I just fill the troughs between the joints with blow in or should I put in a vapor barrier under the insulation before I put down the floor on top of the joists?

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former l'yard manager

03-18-2003 18:58:39




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 Re: Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to Dennis Stoeser, 03-17-2003 21:15:36  
If your question is referring to my earlier reply, the diff between a wood shop and my tractor shop is that I wash and wax my vehicles in there and when I bring in the tractors in winter, they have snow on them that melts. Both scenarios produce a lot of humidity. Incidentally, I have two floor drains in the shop to drain it out. FLM



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Peter Kosloski

03-18-2003 10:01:56




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 Re: Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to Dennis Stoeser, 03-17-2003 21:15:36  
Just got done insulating my 32 x 42 shop. First put radiant barier insulation on girts and purlins (reflectex). Nice stuff just staple it up and gives R-6. Then built stud walls and put up r-11 batt kraft faced. On the ceiling used r-19 MBI vynl faced. I have in floor heat and it did well this winter kept at 50 degrees. I have many pics on how I did it and can send them to you if you have email.

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CNKS

03-17-2003 18:50:13




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 Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to luckydog, 03-16-2003 19:49:09  
I don't have a ceiling. I used 6 inch fiberglass bats in the walls, covered with OSB and had poly urethane sprayed on the underside of the roof. Heated with 50000 btu overhead gas furnace. 900 sq ft work area, 11 foot walls plus roof. (Kansas). Works fine.



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57ringo

03-17-2003 17:49:40




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 Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to luckydog, 03-16-2003 19:49:09  
I put white tin on the inside and put 6" bat insulation in the walls and blew 12" in the ceiling. I didn't use a vapor barrier in the ceiling but I should have if nothing else but to stop any tiny drafts. The tin is not rusting. I heat with a 75,000 BTU tube heater and it works great and efficient.



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Mark

03-17-2003 16:07:27




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 Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to luckydog, 03-16-2003 19:49:09  
I plan on using blown cellulose in mine, sides and ceiling. I disagree on the vapor barrier some have suggested, as vapor barriers are used in humidified spaces for moisture control, and you probably won't be humidifying. My dad built his like this, and no problems yet.



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former lumberyard manager (26 years)

03-17-2003 18:54:34




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 Re: Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to Mark, 03-17-2003 16:07:27  
I disagree with your disagreement re: vapor barrier. The vapor barrier is used to stop the natural movement of moisture from high humidity areas (your warm, moist shop in the winter) to areas of low humidity (the cold, dry outside in the winter). Without the vapor barrier, the moisture will move into the insulation and condense where the temperature changes- right next to your inside liner, in this case, the steel. This causes rust to start on the back side of the steel where you can't see it till it's too late, because cellulose insulation has fire retardency chemicals in it that react terribly to steel when moisture is present. On the other hand, if you are using sheetrock for a ceiling, forget the poly on the ceiling, as moisture that collects in the sheetrock will cause it to sag. But put poly on all walls, regardless of what insul/liner you use. Moisture travels up with warm air.
As for putting cellulose in the walls of your building, discuss it with an installer. He won't guarantee it in walls because of severe settling, as stated below.
Incidentally, my shop (tractors, truck, NOT woodworking) has 6" fiberglass/poly vapor barrier/steel liner, and the ceiling is cellulose/poly/steel, all liners screwed on.

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Rollie

03-20-2003 16:30:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to former lumberyard manager (26 years), 03-17-2003 18:54:34  
Mark: As a former Fire Chief I have attended training seminars on the use of blown in insulation with regards to fire safety. If I were you I would stay away from the cellulose and use blown in fiber glass. The problem with the cellulose is that should you ever have a fire in a wall or ceiling all of the cellulose has to be removed to avoid rekindling. Fire has a tendency to smolder and tunnel thru the insulation until it recieves enough oxygen to restart a fire. Sometimes this can take up to 2 weeks to happen.
Rollie

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Mark

03-21-2003 16:57:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to Rollie, 03-20-2003 16:30:10  
Yeah, but I can't run down to the home center and buy blow in fiberglas either. Not to mention that who cares if It burns some more up to two weeks later if it burns in the first place all is lost. Just my thoughts on it.



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Robert in W. Mi

03-22-2003 18:32:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to Mark, 03-21-2003 16:57:06  
Not necessarly true. The fire dept. could get it put out and save some of the stuff inside. The problem is, the fire can restart at a later time and that could be avoided! Pay a little more now, and be safer. This is the voice of experence talking, as i had home fire one time!! Robert



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Mark

03-18-2003 17:20:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to former lumberyard manager (26 years), 03-17-2003 18:54:34  
So where is this supposed moisture coming from in your heated shop? Dunno about your location, but when I run a furnace in my house, unless I'm running a humidifier to replace lost moisture from heating the air, everyone in my family get's spontaneous nosebleeds after about a day and a half. And it isn't from combustion byproducts of the fossil fuel you're likely burning, since modern heat sources use external combustion air anyways. If you are using a woodstove, then fine, use a vapor barrier, but it's dry enough to split wood by itself in my shop.

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former l'yard mgr

03-18-2003 19:20:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to Mark , 03-18-2003 17:20:07  
I'm in Iowa. I wash and wax my vehicles in my shop year around (actual, not "supposed" moisture). Also I move snow with two tractors, and keep them in the shop when not using them. When they melt off, again it's actual, not "supposed" moisture. If you keep the doors shut in winter and don't bring in anything with rain or snow on it, or have a water supply (which results in washing things) to the shed, you could probably do away with the poly.
Do yours anyway you like. I'm just trying to give the guy a little experienced advice, which is what he asked for. Also, almost everything in your house will absorb humidity-furniture, carpet, sheetrock, lumber inside the walls, etc. Most of the stuff in a shop is steel and concrete- not exactly absorbant materials. Just imagine how un-dry your house would be if you dumped a hundred or so gallons of water on the floor every week and let it evaporate with the windows and doors shut.flm

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KC

03-19-2003 07:20:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to former l'yard mgr, 03-18-2003 19:20:15  
What would you recomend using for a rodent barrier, and where should it be placed?
Thanks KC



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Central Minnesota

03-19-2003 16:15:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to KC, 03-19-2003 07:20:19  
I use ordinary dimension lumber to fill in between poles at the top of the wall cavity. Any small holes can be covered with plywood or caulk or both. If you run your wiring in the walls (which I don't recommend) be sure to caulk the holes you drill at the top for the wiring. For the ends of the sheets if you are using metal barn siding just use the ordinary J channel.



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Central Minnesota

03-17-2003 16:22:14




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 Re: Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to Mark, 03-17-2003 16:07:27  
The Cellulose settles in the sidwall. Depending on the sidwall height I've seen as much as 18" of settling. If this is going to be insulated I expect that it will be heated. If it is a slab on grade without heated floor the floor will respirate many gallon of moisture per day into the building. Not to mention tractors and other vehicles/implements that may drip water on the floor in the winter time.

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Howard H.

03-17-2003 13:58:34




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 Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to luckydog, 03-16-2003 19:49:09  

We have 2 inch mesh chicken wire holding fiberglass insulation against the ceiling in our barn...

That works pretty well, except Dad sure wishes he had used 1 inch mesh to help keep the birds from being able to make nests in it so easily...

Howard H.



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Central Minnesota

03-17-2003 13:12:53




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 Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to luckydog, 03-16-2003 19:49:09  
I wouldn't use foam anywhere, especially in contact with metal siding. Fiberglass batting is probably the best value. Install polyethylene film vapor barrier between the insulation and the inside wall finish. Be sure to seal the TOP and BOTTOM of the wall cavaties. If you don't seal them the rodents will have a great place to multiply and it won't be long and your insulation will be worthless. Use blowing insulation (fiberglass or treated cellulose) on the ceiling. If your electrical wiring is going to be buried in the insulation use metal tubing or flex for rodent protection.

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John Humphrey Morocco IN.

03-17-2003 04:34:38




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 Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to luckydog, 03-16-2003 19:49:09  
Buy the one piece wall batting from FBI. Use 6 mil poly vapor barrier. Apply wall and ceiling materal and blow in 15 INCHS insl. in overhead. I did this in a 32 X 48 building and it is heated by a 50,000 BTU furnace and cooled by a 2 1/2 ton air conditioner, which runs less then the 3 ton unit for the house. Put the money in good insluation now and save on energy latter.



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Bob/OH

03-17-2003 03:52:36




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 Re: Need opinions on insulating a pole building in reply to luckydog, 03-16-2003 19:49:09  
DON'T put any blown insulation against the metal siding as it will collect moisture, and rust the metal.I put stryfoam pannels against the metal and then blew the insulation against that.



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