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Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight.

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Robert in Md.

12-17-2002 14:31:52




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MY chainsaw has been run with the bolts holding the muffler loose until the threads are messed up in the block. I have rethreaded the block to a larger size and made some new bolts. The problem is the bolts will not stay tight. After about 5 minutes sawing the bolts have screwed out. I then drilled a hole in the side of each bolt head and wired the bolts together. The bolts have not screwed out but they have loosen up. Is there a Loctite product that will glue these threads and stand the heat? Does anyone have any other ideas? I hate to throw the saw away , it runs good when the muffler is tight. When the muffler gets loose the saw won't idledown at all. Thanks Robert

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EPR

12-24-2002 17:14:02




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 Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Robert in Md., 12-17-2002 14:31:52  
What model are you talking about?



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Vern-MI

12-18-2002 13:26:54




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 Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Robert in Md., 12-17-2002 14:31:52  
One thing I noticed on my Jonsered is that the muffler is built like a clam shell and there wasn't any spacer between the clam shell halves to support the bolt load and the muffler would start to collapse. I solved that problem by cutting two lengths of 3/8" steel tubing to fit between the clamshell halves to support the bolt clamping pressure.



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Fred OH

12-18-2002 12:45:49




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 Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Robert in Md., 12-17-2002 14:31:52  
File a couple of small notches 180 degrees apart with a triangular file on a stud or extra long bolt perpendicular to axis of threads. (You'll have to cut the head off the bolt so you can screw on a nut). Drive a couple of hard brads in the grooves to lock the threads in. It'll be tight then! Cheap and easy fix. L8R....Fred OH



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Vern-MI

12-18-2002 05:36:43




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 Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Robert in Md., 12-17-2002 14:31:52  
Use a bottom tap in the saw case in oder to maximize the thread engaement. Then use studs instead of bolts as they will make full use of the threaded holes. Apply Threadlocker 272 - High Temperature (450°F) to the threaded hole and thread the studs in all the way to the bottom and apply approximately 50 lb.in. of torque. Install the muffler with prevailing torque nuts (self locking), not Nylock as it can't take the heat, then it should hold.

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Robert in Md.

12-18-2002 08:53:20




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 Re: Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Vern-MI, 12-18-2002 05:36:43  
Vern, I used a bottom tap on the holes, the idea of using studs is a good idea, then I would never have to bother the messed up threads in the block. Anyway I 've run the saw 2 hours this morning and the bolts are still tight, so maybe the loctite and safety wire will hold. My wife and I are cleaning out brush and trees from a house we purchased next door. The previous owner had planted Christmas trees and didn't sell all of them about 20 years age. About 2 hours of sawing and piling is all we can stand a day. Thank everyone for your help. Robert

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Ludwig

12-19-2002 19:51:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Robert in Md., 12-18-2002 08:53:20  
Glad to hear it worked for you.
One thing NOT to try, I did this on a lawnmower when I was about 15, is to try tightening the bolts when the motor is hot.
Somebody had told me about heating things and expansion and whatnot to get bolts loose. I thought that surely the reverse would work to keep things tight. All it ever did was have me drilling out the broken stubs....



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Slowpoke

12-17-2002 22:47:26




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 Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Robert in Md., 12-17-2002 14:31:52  
Sorry, I just remembered that you need the special tap also. They're sold seperately like the coils. Helicoil brand is 2x more $ than Reiff & Nestor (if you can find it), or other brands. 1/4-20 R&N-$6.75, Helicoil-$13.75. 3/8-16 R&N-$9.45, Helicoil-$21.40 .
Prices from a 2000 industrial cat. They no longer give out Sears & Roebuck size catalogs-too costly, I guess.
Look in the Yellow Pages under Industrial Supplies. Another source is used tool stores. I got an unused set of Helicoil M10 for $15. I found a new 5/16-18 other brand set in an auto supply for $20.

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Slowpoke

12-17-2002 21:47:38




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 Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Robert in Md., 12-17-2002 14:31:52  
Do you really need a special tool to insert Helicoils? I'v made the tool from a scrap piece of rod of the correct size to fit inside the coil. Look at the factory tool very closely, and try to duplicate the business end with a file. It doesn't take much effort to screw the coil in. Then reach in and break off the tang with a long nose pliers. Get a feel for it first on the bench before the real thing.
Some of the professional installation tools run $60- $70. They're made like a crank.

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Nolan

12-17-2002 18:26:04




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 Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Robert in Md., 12-17-2002 14:31:52  
Damaged threads don't like to turn. Many times a carefull whack with a hammer on the bolt threads will booger them up enough to stay put.

With your safety wiring, I suspect you're not wiring the bolts correctly. If you do them right, they aren't going to loosen.



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ben in KY

12-17-2002 16:41:44




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 Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Robert in Md., 12-17-2002 14:31:52  
How about some springs under the bolts. The helicoil insert idea posted previously in this thread is good.



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Ludwig

12-17-2002 15:13:26




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 Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Robert in Md., 12-17-2002 14:31:52  
Oh Loctite will take heat. Just try to heat a bolt to get one out!
You might check but I think red loctite is good to like 5000 degrees or some foolishness.
Okay, so I checked. Loctite has an EXCELLENT website.
Blue and green are good to 300 degrees.
Strangely although Red is called for "high heat" its still supposedly only good to 300 degrees.

Still I think you'd be fine with any of those.

Unfortunately what I think is happening is that the metal your bolts are going into is soft. Perhaps the old threads were hardened somehow or had hardened inserts. So now you'll be continually fighting the soft metal. Maybe a helicoil would solve the problem.

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Ron

12-18-2002 05:45:54




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 Re: Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Ludwig, 12-17-2002 15:13:26  
Either "safety" them, or get or make a thin metal shim plate that the muffler bolts will bolt thru, with a turn-up tab for locking the bolts....then they should not loosten..... To "safety" them, you will have to drill the bolt heads for the safety wire, or change the bolts.....



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Robert in Md.

12-17-2002 18:27:41




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 Re: Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Ludwig, 12-17-2002 15:13:26  
I just took the muffler apart again, made a new thicker gasket and put plenty of red Loctite on the threads. I'll find out tomorrow morning whether it works. Looked in Enco for Helicoil, the setup of those thinks are expensive. Best I can tell about $45.00 for the tools to put in 3 coils. I not sure the saws worth that much.



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Ray,IN

12-17-2002 19:05:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Robert in Md., 12-17-2002 18:27:41  
Have you tried using lock washers yet? What is happening is, the aluminum block heats up and expands quicker than the steel bolts, allowing the bolts to release thier tension. The locktite and a lockwasher should hold them tight. If the threads are really loose you might slip a thin sliver of aluminum into the hole, similar to what you would do with a loose wood screw by using a wooden kitchen match or toothpick.

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JDK

12-17-2002 18:36:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Robert in Md., 12-17-2002 18:27:41  
Check your saw dealer or small engine shop,Most would prolly have the helicoil insert tools.Last time I had a couple installed,my mech did it for the extra inserts from the 6pk that they came in.



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Ludwig

12-17-2002 18:36:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Chain saw muffler bolts won't stay tight. in reply to Robert in Md., 12-17-2002 18:27:41  
Yeah, but even a poor machine shop should be able to do your two for less than that.

Good luck with the loctite. Its been my experience that it'll help for awhile. I had screws on my pickup that held a box in the bed, they stripped out the thin metal of the box but some blue loctite held them a couple months longer. I finally had to replace them with bolts and nuts. Still that was thinner metal with very little contact point. Hopefully you'll have better luck.

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