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Buried utilities

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Victor Hoernig

05-24-2002 10:11:10




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I'm planning on upgrading my pole barn by providing 220V power, water, and communications cables (Catagory 5 and coax). Will burying all these utilities in the same 150' long trench have any negative affects on the quality of the transmissions throught the communuication lines? Do I need a special type of shielding on the communication cables? Should I put the cables inside pvc pipe?




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Bob

05-28-2002 16:21:09




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 Re: buried utilities in reply to Victor Hoernig, 05-24-2002 10:11:10  
When I built my house, I had to bury the 400amp electric service feed. Code in western Oregon required 4' minimum depth. I put in a 3" PVC conduit for the power. I partially filled the ditch then laid in direct bury 6 pair armored phone wire at about the three foot level. The run is about 120 feet. No hum in the phone lines and I regularly get 50K data rates.

If I was going to run electricity and data to my barn, I'd bury PVC for the power, partially fill the ditch and bury another smaller PVC pipe for the Cat5, Cat3 and coax feeds. If you space the two conduits a foot or 18" apart, you'll not have much mutual coupling or interference.
-Bob

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jlasater

05-26-2002 22:25:37




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 Re: buried utilities in reply to Victor Hoernig, 05-24-2002 10:11:10  
Cat5 cable can be run next to 120VAC power cabling, but it's not recommended. I wouldn't do it at all around 220VAC. Data is totally different than plain old telephone cable. To be honest, even though it'd be more $$$, I'd lay a couple pair of fiber in there with everything else and have a contractor terminate the fiber pairs. You'll be protected from ground problems, the fiber supports faster transfer speeds for upgrades in the future, and there's no way the power cables will interfere with the data. If you do end up running the Cat5 in the same trench, make SURE it's rated for direct burial or put it in conduit all by itself, and try to keep it as far away from the power cables as possible. You may be able to get away with bundling everything together, but why risk it? Do it once and do it right :-)

I'm picky about networking, working in the profession, so fiber get's my vote. Another option, if the distance isn't too far, would be to run wireless.

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Hal/WA

05-24-2002 23:11:58




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 Re: buried utilities in reply to Victor Hoernig, 05-24-2002 10:11:10  
Whenever I dig a deep trench in my very rocky soil for a water line, I put in a second empty water line, so if the first one goes bad, I will have the other to use without digging. I have all my underground electrical in PVC conduit so it is possible to repair and/or change things without digging and have run Phone Company direct burial phone cable on the other side of the ditch from the electrical conduit. I also have run the heavy plastic natural gas lines in the same trench with the gas company's help. I always buy sand to put both over and under any of the piping and hope for the best. No problems yet.

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jim lafayette

05-25-2002 08:21:45




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 Re: Re: buried utilities in reply to Hal/WA, 05-24-2002 23:11:58  
I also need to run utilities to my workshop.
I have a propane tank near the shop and another near the house, I would like to connect the two propane tanks by underground tubing. The question is, what kind of tubing is recommended?



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T_Bone

05-25-2002 09:00:02




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 Re: Re: Re: buried utilities in reply to jim lafayette, 05-25-2002 08:21:45  
Back in the 70's in Colorado the contractors talked the Gas companys into using plastic pipe for gas lines. All was well until there was a big explosion that killed several construction workers and leveled 50 new homes. You should have seen the TV pictures as it looked like a war zone.

What they determined that happened, was during the winter all the contractors were driving there trucks over the burried gas line and it cracked the gas line letting the soil to became saturated with gas and then a truck back fired setting off the explosion.

They did outlaw plastic pipe for gas service for awhile. I haven't read the current code books to see if it's now allowed.
Most codes call for machined wraped steel black pipe for underground gas lines. Then each joint has to be wraped and sealed in the field.

T_Bone

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Al English

05-25-2002 16:10:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: buried utilities in reply to T_Bone, 05-25-2002 09:00:02  
Hi TBone,

The main feeders they installed in my area a couple of years ago are plastic. And from what I understand, that is pretty much the case everywhere. However, I doubt that plastic is used on larger and higher pressure lines. Depending on circumstances the line is put in with either a vibrating plow kind of machine, or installed into a bored hole. The ends are "welded"...Al English



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Hal/WA

05-25-2002 19:48:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: buried utilities in reply to Al English, 05-25-2002 16:10:36  
I have a 6" high pressure line going by my house that is heavy steel with welded joints and buried deep. I think it has about 800 pounds pressure and moves enough gas to feed a smaller city. It was quite a production when they put in this line, especially when they hit a ridge of hard rock. They jackhammered with an excavator for 2 days to get 150 feet, but finally go deep enough. At first they used small yard double or triple regulator stations to get the pressure down to normal street pressure, but later they came back through and dug up the street again and put in a 2.5" plastic line about half as deep as the high pressure line, but in the same ditch. Both lines were carefully and heavily backfilled with good sand below and above them. The smaller lines, which are about 3/4" ID are heat welded to the street pressure line and then lead to a conventional regulator and gas meter by my house. The plastic pipe from the gas company is very thick, probably 1/4" and is what the gas company has used in our area for some time, without much of any problems. The gas company workers said they like it because in the ground, it is almost indestructable. I ran everything in the same ditch after first carefully asking the phone company, the gas company and the electric company. It is a real chore to dig, with the large number of rocks of all sizes that I encounter, so I try to work it so I don't have to dig very often. I have done my building in a particularly rocky area both to avoid wasting usable farm land and also to not have so much trouble with mud at wet times of the year.

Something I forgot to mention is that the gas company buries a heavy, insulated copper wire attached to each plastic pipe. They have an electrical device that they attach to the end of the wire where the pipe comes out of the ground. The device produces a signal that they can hear with another device that they run over the ground, allowing them to very accurately locate their gas line, even if it is 3 or 4 feet deep. I thought this was really neat!

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George in PA

05-24-2002 20:28:44




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 Re: buried utilities in reply to Victor Hoernig, 05-24-2002 10:11:10  
If that cat5 if for a network connection you may have an issue. The "spec." says not to run cat5 in Parallel with power lines (also maximum run is 328 feet for what it is worth), but there is always room to play as well as other ways around any problem. Since you did not mention a seperate phone line I figure that's what the cat5 is for but just in case thought I'd mention it.



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Jim in Michigan

05-24-2002 19:17:14




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 Re: buried utilities in reply to Victor Hoernig, 05-24-2002 10:11:10  
You can bury them all together, use some form of conduit though, I would suggest 4-6 feet deep. if you will be driving over the area make it 6 feet deep, driving over water or septic lines in winter will drive the frost down and freeze your pipes, have seen it happen way to many times, only problem with putting it all in one is future repairs, but then again you know where all the lines are at :) good luck,,,JIm

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Red Dave

05-24-2002 16:49:43




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 Re: buried utilities in reply to Victor Hoernig, 05-24-2002 10:11:10  
I did exactly the same thing you want to do about 6 years ago. Water, power, phone, cable tv out to the shop in one trench. About 130 feet for me.
Works fine, no problems so far. I did put the power, phone and cable inside a 4" black plastic flexible hose along with a piece of light rope for possible future needs, (the hose is the cheap kind used for downspouts and drains), and laid it separatly in the trench beside the water line.

It's not going to pass code, but it works fine.

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big fred

05-24-2002 14:02:53




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 Re: buried utilities in reply to Victor Hoernig, 05-24-2002 10:11:10  
You shouldn't see any noticeable interference unless your soil dries out to that depth. The moist soil is providing a direct path to ground for the energy radiated from the 220 lines. Make sure all your cables are rated for direct burial if you don't put them in conduit.



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Fat Jack

05-24-2002 12:42:21




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 Re: buried utilities in reply to Victor Hoernig, 05-24-2002 10:11:10  
A lot of people told me I couldnt put all the lines in the same trench, but I did it anyway. Water, telephone, and 200 amp service all right next to each other. Electric & Phone in seperate pvc conduits, for 180 feet. I figured at worst I would just get phone static. But I didnt get any. Phone works perfect. I did get shielded phone cable. Get about a six pair wire so you can add things down the road if you had a mind to.

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Mac

05-24-2002 12:28:18




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 Re: buried utilities in reply to Victor Hoernig, 05-24-2002 10:11:10  
You might want to check codes in your area. I know telephone co do not bury with a water line. A
Big problem digging if you should need to repair water line or cables separetly. Proper type wire should not need to be put in plastic.



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Brian G. NY

05-24-2002 15:55:45




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 Re: Re: buried utilities in reply to Mac, 05-24-2002 12:28:18  
I buried everything in the same trench: 3-0 direct burial triplex, 3/4" black plastic (200 lb.) water pipe, direct burial shielded coax and direct burial shielded 6 pair telephone line. I know this is overkill, but I put the coax and the telephone cables inside separate 3/4" black plastic pipe lines and the triplex in 2" Sch. 40 PVC conduit. I put the electric on one side of the 2' wide trench and everything else on the opposite side about 3" from one another. I buried it 5' deep and put about 10" of virtually stonefree topsoil on everything before I began backfilling. I just didn't want to ever have a problem with any of this stuff as long as I live and I guess probably nobody else should ever have a problem either. I can pull everything but the water line and I guess if I ever have a problem with it, I'll just dig a new trench over a few feet from the existing one. Where I live in upstate New York, 4 feet deep is the recommended depth to avoid frozen water lines. BTW, I haven't yet used the coax line, but the telephone is clear as a bell. My underground lines run 220 feet. Although I have 220 volt single phase service, I put in another ground at the shop in addition to the neutral in the triplex service line. I also ran a 12-3 W/Ground in the 2" conduit and put 3-way switches at the barn and the house so I can turn the peak mounted spotlights on or off at both the shop and the house.

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