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Simple Shed

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Bus Driver

03-28-2002 17:26:38




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For tractors and implements, I plan to build a shed with poles. There is a local creosote pressure treating facility and they have round poles 16 feet long and about 6"-8" dia at the large end. My question is about the poles possibly sinking lower after the roof is in place. I have been told that concrete under the poles will hasten their deterioration. Some other local folks use old utility poles which are larger diameter, but getting adequate numbers of them takes some time unless one has a buddy with the crew that replaces poles. One of my laid-back friends tells me that he doesn't worry a lot about his pole sheds being level when they are built or afterward. But I prefer to have mine level for a long time. Is it likely that poles buried 4' deep will sink after the building is complete? Any good means of supporting under the poles? Thanks for sharing your experiences and suggestions.

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Fm

03-31-2002 13:40:56




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 Re: Simple Shed in reply to Bus Driver, 03-28-2002 17:26:38  
I agree with the other posts. Go to your local concrete place and ask for "pole barn footers". Some places call them pills. If neither of these terms work, tell them what your doing and they will know what your talking about. Last time we bought them, I think we paid 3.25 for them. Not to bad considering they make them out of the extra concrete that comes back in their trucks.



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PapaB

03-29-2002 16:15:47




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 Re: Simple Shed in reply to Bus Driver, 03-28-2002 17:26:38  
a related question...

I have 10 acres of trees and would like to cut my own poles. What can I do to treat them or is there a way to set them on concrete piers to minimize rot?

TIA



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Ludwig

03-30-2002 05:51:05




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 Re: Re: Simple Shed in reply to PapaB, 03-29-2002 16:15:47  
Have you ever looked into cordwood stack construction? Do a google search for it. I need to build a shed on the farm soon and I think I'm going to so the walls this way.



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VaTom

03-30-2002 05:02:38




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 Re: Re: Simple Shed in reply to PapaB, 03-29-2002 16:15:47  
Depending on the size of your trees... I'm building a post&beam 2 1/2 story, on top of a 16' tall buried concrete building, out of 6x timbers cut from my woodlot. The posts sit on sections of 6" I beam as I don't like the post feet you can buy. Diagonal bracing is required to resist wracking but not complicated. This is more labor than either normal pole-building or stick-built but, to me, the product is worth the effort. No wood treatment other than for powder post beetles but as long as I keep the feet dry there'll be no rot problem. I found in a previous building that tulip poplar (magnolia) didn't dry very gracefully in large sizes (fine for rafters, joists, siding) and am solely using oaks and black locust timbers now, depending on availability. I normally only cut dead trees. It's nice to know the lumber came from the property. And the price was right.

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old bones

03-29-2002 19:14:26




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 Re: Re: Simple Shed in reply to PapaB, 03-29-2002 16:15:47  
treated lumber is first dried down some, and then is put into an autoclave type pressure chamber, where the cca treatment is forced into the lumber by pressure. if you just "paint" a preservative on the surface, you're just wasting your time, money, and good timber. as far as setting the poles on above ground concrete piers, you are only delaying the decomposition time by a bit. then, you have to consider shrink as the timber dries (and it will, more than you think). treated poles set in the ground should have a concrete donut FIRMLY set at the bottom of the hole for the post to set on, then the holes should be backfilled with pea rock or cleaned gravel and tamped. the pea rock allows the water to drain away from the treated poles. it is a misconception that treated lumber is rot-proof. it isn't. also, there are different grades of treatment: .20, which is cheap (usually brown colored) but not very long lasting in any application, .40, which is for ground contact (but NOT below ground), and .60 which is for below ground. another thing to look for is the species of wood. white pine species are one to stay clear of. go for SYP (southern yellow pine). SYP is by far the best species for treated lumber, but is more expensive than the soft pines. all major building companies use SYP 6x6,s for their poles.

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F14

03-29-2002 16:20:50




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 Re: Re: Simple Shed in reply to PapaB, 03-29-2002 16:15:47  
I don't think so. The stuff used to treat them is more than a bit toxic. I also suspect that even if you COULD get the materials (which I doubt, without a license) it'd cost you WAY more than storebought lumber.

That being said, you might get away with untreated trees, if you use the right species, such as cypress or (maybe)cedar. Locally (Maine) Eastern Larch, aka Tamarack, aka Hackmatack, was used to build septic tanks with years ago, and many of them are still in service. Larch knees are still preferred by traditional boat builders for keels and stems. Pretty dang tough wood, and I think it'd make dandy untreated poles if you have access to it.

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Jack

03-29-2002 06:16:35




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 Re: Simple Shed in reply to Bus Driver, 03-28-2002 17:26:38  
Built my first pole barn last fall. After speaking to many others on this site and locally I filled each hole with bags of concrete (5-8 inches) and set the 6"x 6" pole on it (below frost line which was a least 4') Backfilled with gravel that will drain well. Everything came out square and level :^). Very enjoyable project. Time will tell if all is well underneath. Good Luck



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RayP(MI)

03-29-2002 04:37:38




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 Re: Simple Shed in reply to Bus Driver, 03-28-2002 17:26:38  
In our area, they sell concrete disks, about a foot in diameter, and about 5" thick, to be placed in the holes before placing the poles. My ploebarn hasn't shifetd or sunk, and was done this way.



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DaveInMI

03-29-2002 03:01:18




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 Re: Simple Shed in reply to Bus Driver, 03-28-2002 17:26:38  
The guys who built my pole barn threw a sack of qucikcrete in the hole, then a round cast concrete piece that looked like a stepping stone and then pole. They filled the hole with dirt.



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F14

03-28-2002 18:10:11




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 Re: Simple Shed in reply to Bus Driver, 03-28-2002 17:26:38  
Depends to some extent on where you are and what kind of ground you have.

Get the bottom of the pole below frost, or at least 4', whichever is more. On my patch, by the time you get down four feet, you hit one of three things: Ledge (bedrock), pin gravel, or blue clay. Any of these make a dandy surface to set a post on. If you're worried about the bottom not being firm enough, I wouldn't hesistate to pour a cement pad for the post to sit on. DO NOT pour cement around the pole in place of backfilling the hole, that causes heaving and pole rot, at least in my experience. I just try to make a reasonably flat bottom, and backfill with screened gravel, which drains well and keeps the ice from getting at the post.

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Bobcat

03-28-2002 21:33:50




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 Re: Re: Simple Shed in reply to F14, 03-28-2002 18:10:11  
Another thing I've done is put a flat rock in the hole first. A guy I know who builds a lot of these makes concrete flats for the bottom!



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frankie

04-07-2002 09:57:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Simple Shed in reply to Bobcat, 03-28-2002 21:33:50  
Round patio block- if you are putting concrete floor in- use treated wood on bottom on 2 bottom wall stringers-reason? if they use plain wood on bottom for concrete form it will rot quickly and your 2nd 2x6 is even with the top of your floor you will have a crack for sure- Wickes did a building and this is going on-very poor construction practice-and use tonuge and groove wood on bottom-if I were to do it again Id specify the BEST treated lumber on bottom- also a good safeguard against termites that are here in Ill

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DAVE S

03-29-2002 04:46:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Simple Shed in reply to Bobcat, 03-28-2002 21:33:50  
'I agree w/ BOBCAT,a good flat stone on the bottom works fine. I've built many this way and never had one settle.I construct nine of 4x4or 6x6 poles.What I do is set a flat stone in and then tamp it down with the pole. This will compact any loose dirt and seat the stone.You can also put in a dry bag of sacrete and then tamp it,set the pole in and back fill.The moisture in the ground will cure it and you don't have wait for the concrete to cure.But I like to use a stone 3"to4" thick the best,it works the best for me.

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Brian G. NY

03-29-2002 06:52:54




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Simple Shed in reply to DAVE S, 03-29-2002 04:46:47  
When Morton built my barn 8 years ago, They dug holes at least 4' deep. Since the area I built on was filled to level it, they dug to virgin soil (7' in one place) on the filled side. They dropped a bag of Redi-Mix in the hole (unopened, but I can't remember if they cut a slit in the the "up" side of the bag). They then set the pole, and poured another bag of Redi-Mix around the pole. They told me that in some cases, they also drill a hole thru the pole 2-1/2" from the bottom and insert a piece of galvanized rod thru it before pouring in the 2nd bag of Reddi-Mix. I assume that this would prevent the barn from "blowing away" in loose soil conditions and extremely high winds. They are supposed to tamp the earth every few inches as they backfill the hole. They were a little lax on that point, and I got quite a lot of "settling" around each pole which I had to backfill and tamp in after the building was up; easier to do when the building isn't in the way. As Dave said, The unopened bag of cement will cure well just from the moisture in the ground. As long as you're down to virgin earth, you won't get settling, and as long as you're below the deepest possible frost level, your poles won't lift from frost heaving.

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