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Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction.

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Roger

03-18-2002 21:54:23




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Considering everyone here is a do-it-yourselfer or professional wrench, I thought you could find some useful information here. There is a newer version of this page, but it is currently unavailable. As far as I could see , the only difference between the two is that it states the Quaker State QS8 is now a Fram Extra Gard. Happy reading.

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G Taylor ...counterfeit problem

03-20-2002 08:49:45




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 Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Roger, 03-18-2002 21:54:23  
Part of the problem with replacement parts e.g." filters,electronics, fasteners etc is cheapy off shore counterfeits. The fake and it's containers are printed with AC or what ever & sold in-place of the real thing. Personally only use Amsoil as it transported & sold only through a "closed" distribution system.



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Jim

03-19-2002 23:24:07




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 Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Roger, 03-18-2002 21:54:23  
A friend of mine had a 1486 IH that ended up with a chunk of the anti-drain back valve out of a NAPA oil filter in the passage to the front main bearing. He sent in the filter to NAPA who then sent it WIX and the said it wasn't there problem.



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KURT (hydraulic engineer by trade and schooling)

03-19-2002 18:08:03




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 Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Roger, 03-18-2002 21:54:23  
This is very interesting (Iwill finish reading at work) Please notify all of us on your results (especially onthe amsoil) I have always wanted to perform a gravemetrics analysis on motor oil (from running engines) and compare oil filters. You could write a book on what you are doing and the info is very very valuable. Please put out a posting when you have completed your work.



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Roger

03-20-2002 18:17:34




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 Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to KURT (hydraulic engineer by trade and schooling), 03-19-2002 18:08:03  
Actually, the article was written by a man named Russ W. Knize, an electrical engineer and automotive enthusiast. Here is the newer version of his work.



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Roger

03-19-2002 17:15:28




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 Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Roger, 03-18-2002 21:54:23  
I agree, Baldwin makes a good product. Baldwin filters even feel heavier when you hold them. I do not know if they are in the automotive market though. I am always installing them on diesels and screw compressors at work.



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Joe (Wa)

03-19-2002 20:44:15




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 Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Roger, 03-19-2002 17:15:28  
Looking for a Baldwin filter cross-reference? Try this. Joe

http://www.baldwinfilter.com/database.htm



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Kevin

03-19-2002 15:28:50




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 Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Roger, 03-18-2002 21:54:23  
Not to be anti-Fram, but I was told by a employee of one of those 20 minute joints who personally couldn't care less, that just about every Fram that he cuts apart to crush the cartridge for recycling is cracked. you don't get any filteration once its got a big crack through the cartridge! He surmised that the "microfitleration" part of their advertising works great until it traps so much dirt that it basically collaspes under pressure.

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Don

03-20-2002 23:29:01




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 Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Kevin, 03-19-2002 15:28:50  
Why would he have to cut apart the filter to crush it? When I worked in a lube shop, we just set 'em in the crusher, and turned on the air.



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Kevin

03-23-2002 13:08:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Don, 03-20-2002 23:29:01  
Out West they have to recycle the metal, so they have to pull them apart to get the guts out. Maybe things have changed, this was about 6-7 years ago.



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Mac

03-19-2002 13:23:25




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 Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Roger, 03-18-2002 21:54:23  
I am an old time believer, regardless of comparisons, and I know that filters are made by several different company's, however, I use whatever brand that came with the equipment or engine.



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RB/CT

03-19-2002 12:44:02




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 Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Roger, 03-18-2002 21:54:23  
Roger, thanks for posting this again. After reading it previously, I stopped using fram filters. I think the individual did an excellent job of research. There was another one on oil also. But since then, Pennzoil has changed their formula to the stop and go formula. Unfortunately it boils down to this. That the companies are only concerned with profits, as the stockholders must make money, as they pay the CEO. Quality suffers. You get what you pay for most of the time. Thanks.

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John Garner

03-19-2002 12:19:05




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 Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Roger, 03-18-2002 21:54:23  
Roger and the Rest of You --

Take the reviews with a proverbial "grain of salt".

I bought a half-dozen AC PF-2 filters when they were on sale at K-Mart, thinking I was getting a good deal on better-quality filters. But when I went to install the first AC filter, I noticed that it looked just like the Champion-made Target store brand filter I was taking off . . . same number of holes in the end cap, one of them larger than the others, and an "AA" stamped on the cap to boot.

More recently, I compared the AC PF-2 to the Wal-Mart Super-Tech filter (another Champion product), and here too the only visible difference is the paint color.

So maybe the pretty royal blue paint on the AC filters is a lot more expensive?

John

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Joe M

03-19-2002 18:18:50




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 Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to John Garner, 03-19-2002 12:19:05  
Hi John, I always enjoy your instructive posts on Mark Kw's board.I peruse this board alot and have never posted but on this subject would like to add my .02.One important thing to remember about the much discussed "oil filter study" is that while the filters were dissected and construction quality noted,They were not tested for filtration efficiency.My personal experience with "identical" filters leads me to believe that there is different quality filter media in otherwise identical casings excepting for the color of paint.My car takes an AC pf-47.Go to autozone and compare it to the equivalent STP/Deutsch(Deutsch now has the STP label)and Bosch.They look identical,right down to the "TT" stampedon the baseplate.So does the Valvoline instant oil change VO-16.Ditto for the Supertech at Walmart.My driving is pretty consistent with lots of short hops and the engine has alot of miles and hence some blowby.My experience since I've started experimenting about 2 1/2 years ago has shown that the Bosch and Stp/Deutsch kept the oil cleanest longer than the AC.With the Valvoline filter the oil was filthy at 2000 miles.(I change at 3000 normally.)The Supertech only went on 2 weeks ago so it's too early to tell since this is the first time I've tried this filter.Twice in the past I tried the Purolator Pure One at 6 bucks a pop with not so good results.Also not so good was the Napa Silver.Oil got dirty much faster than usual.To my knowledge Wix makes the Napa Gold but not the Silver.I guess the point I'm trying to make is that identical casings may not contain identical quality innards but rather what is spec'd out to Champion Labs or whoever produces the filter.Presently I think the STP/Deutsch at about 2.89 gives good bang for the buck.AC costs about the same.The Supertech if performs well will be even better at 2.00 each.The standard purolator filters were ok at best in my opinion.Won't touch a Fram nor Penske,Quaker State since Fram makes them too.So there you have my definitely biased opinion based on constantly observing the clarity of my engine oil(yea I know,get a life).Just hadda get it outta my system. Joe M

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BillJ

03-20-2002 02:11:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Joe M, 03-19-2002 18:18:50  
I wanted to take a second and remind everyone that just because your oil "looks" filthy,does not mean it is.By this I mean Detergent motor oil is designed to keep particles in suspension until they are removed-either by filtering or more likley draining them from the engine at change-over time.A basic rule is that you Cannot judge how an oil-or filter-is working by the color of an oil. New oil will darken quickly ,especially in an engine that has some mileage on it.This means the oil is doing its job.You can have new,clean looking oil with enough sand in it -sand you cannot see-that will destroy an engine in seconds.Dark "dirty " oil contains alot of carbon,which actually acts as a lubricant(i.e. graphite).The "bigger" particles have been contained by the filter,but remember when the filter only required changing every OTHER oil change?The oil itself is much more important than the filter,use a good grade of detergent. Change it on a schedule-don't go by the color of it.

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PCC-AL

03-19-2002 09:25:49




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 Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Roger, 03-18-2002 21:54:23  
After reading the article, I still am not sure if it is speaking about one style or type of filter or referring to particular brands. Maybe I didn't read closely enough. Probably a lot of us consumers go the the parts store or Walmart and ask for a filter to fit whatever. In my area, the Walmart choices are Fram, AC, etc. The NAPA stores sell Wix mostly. What do I choose??



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ralph

03-19-2002 13:01:31




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 Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to PCC-AL, 03-19-2002 09:25:49  
PCC\AL: The note above by RB\CT also said he did NOT like Fram as well as myself. As I remember Purolator , Wix.. I have been buying these since. If it was written\layedout better it would help but at least its an attempt to help inform.. R.



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T_Bone

03-20-2002 01:18:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to ralph, 03-19-2002 13:01:31  
Hi Al,

I've listen to all the Fram bashing over the years but I just last year retired two vechiles, 79 T-Bird and a 76 Dodge Power Wagon, that I put on 475000 miles between them using nothing but Fram fliters both oil and air. I always changed the oil filters at 3000 miles using Penzoil and Quakerstate.

I did about 1986 or so quit using Penzoil as my vechiles all of sudden started using oil between changes. I changed too Quakerstate and my oil usage dropped again to normal. Last year my Power Wagon once again started using oil and I read where Penzoil had bought out Quakerstate. I bought a new F350 PSD so I haven't ran the Dodge and changed oil brands to see if that was the problem or not. I would think it would be tho.

For the F350 diesel, I decided to use Chevron Delo 15w40 and motorcraft oil filters as Wal-mart carrys them cheap enough.

The car I'm using Chevron Delo 10w30 and AC oil filters as again easy to get at Wal-mart.

Why Chevron oils? There supposed to be top rated for diesels so I figure I can't go wrong.

T_Bone

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sting

03-20-2002 19:56:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to T_Bone, 03-20-2002 01:18:28  
You could have obtained that same engine life had you installed an empty can in place of the filter and drained it each time you changed oil. Thats about what you did! The Fram filter didn't trap anything but the large rocks. You got your long life from using quality oil and changing it too often. What a waste of good oil and time!!!



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T_Bone

03-20-2002 21:46:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to sting, 03-20-2002 19:56:52  
Hi sting,

Lets see, I had a great unkle that in the 50's, 60's and 70's that never changed his oil but did change oil filters when he thought about it. He got 200k plus out of alot of his cars. I never got to ask him personally about this but listen to the stories when I was young. I have no idea what oil filter, oil or how much oil he used during the 200k. I do remember him saying "changing oil is a waste of money". So with that mindset anything is possible!

One thing I did notice is you never stated just how many miles you personally have put on one engine listing the oil and oil filter brand. Gees I wonder why!

T_Bone

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..Because, T_bone

03-21-2002 07:16:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to T_Bone, 03-20-2002 21:46:14  
..How many miles you got on two engines is not much proof of anything in the over all view. This report is to give an idea how on well built or poorly built the insides of the different brands are. Then anyone can make a better INFORMED decision based on details of construction ..rather than on T_bones (or anyone else) bragging. There is always someone who has a bigger story to tell. Be it fishing or stockmarket or chasing wommen or driving 2 engines 473,000.8 miles. I'd rather go by general construction info rather than your "always better" comments. Frank Lee

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T_Bone

03-21-2002 08:33:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to ..Because, T_bone, 03-21-2002 07:16:03  
Hi Frank,

Maybe I missed something in mileage 101 but the objective is to get as many miles from an engine before having to replace it. In this case you can't ask too much more from a gas engine thats lasted 250k, thru two teenagers and 22yrs and another engine thats gone 225k and 25yrs but no kids... lol

To me the oil and filter did it's job and it doesn't matter what anyones opinion is on what a filter "looks" like as the fact is in the mileage. The proff is in the pudding as they say. Fram made the mileage.

Then why am I'm not going to use Fram on both new rigs? Cause I can buy a better OEM filter at a resonable cost but you couldn't do that 20yrs ago at a cost effective price.

Would it had mattered if I would of used XYZ oil and filter? NOPE as both bodys were worn out to the point that fixed cost was close too replacement cost so it didn't matter if I used XYZ or not.

You don't run into people that can say they ran a vehicle over 200k. Most people trades them long before there close to being worn out.

No bragging here just facts!

You have not yet to post how many miles you have got on any engine. Now why is that? I smell a Amsoil wanna be salesman....LMAO

T_Bone

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DonB

03-21-2002 09:13:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to T_Bone, 03-21-2002 08:33:50  
I had a '64 Ford with a 170-6. I bought it with a bad motor at 80K miles. It got a Sears short block. Fram PH8 and Castrol 30wt changed about every 2 months and that thing went 180K+ miles. Body rust and a blown freeze plug are what caused it to be parked and a brush fire killed it. I sold the engine and it was put in another van where I just heard it is still running.

My Corvair went almost 100K on Fram PH4 and Castrol before it dropped a valve seat. A friend put another head on the engine and the last I heard it was still going. He remarked on how good the bores and bearings looked.

A friend recently complained to me that his '76 454 only went 350K miles before it wore out. He only uses Mobil 1 and AC filters. He changes the filter every 6 months and the oil only once a year.

I have heard that the new Fram is not as good as they were before the mid 80s. My pickup is getting WIX and either Castrol Synthetic or Mobil 1 oil, depending on what is available at the Price Club. Its oil is changed every 2 months. I use that schedule because it is easy to remember that I change oil on odd numbered months. It only has 75K miles so it is way too early to tell. Same with my wife's Honda CRV.

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ralph

03-19-2002 04:50:53




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 Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Roger, 03-18-2002 21:54:23  
Roger: I may have mailed it if you live near Mpls\StPaul and have an MD. I haven't even considered buying a Fram thats on big discount sale since reading this a couple years ago.. Good info and well worth spending time reading. Filters are important but few really know how well it's working. The trouble with very poor filters is that the problems end up showing itself elsewhere in worn engine parts and the connection back to a poor filter is not believed. R.

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Farmer-Gene-WI

03-19-2002 07:59:40




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 Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to ralph, 03-19-2002 04:50:53  
As far as I'm concerned Baldwin filters are the only ones to use. It would be interesting to see how they compare with the rest.



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DonB

03-19-2002 09:36:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to Farmer-Gene-WI, 03-19-2002 07:59:40  
I used to order a years supply of Wix from carparts.com but that option is no longer available. Where can I get Wix (or Baldwin) at a decent price?



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NAPA sells Wix, but beware of the price-PCC-AL

03-19-2002 10:59:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to DonB, 03-19-2002 09:36:58  
I recently needed a part for an electronic ignition so I priced it at NAPA-$237.00 for a module. I went to Auto Zone and bought the same part for $79.00. It pays to shop around.



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fassey merguson

03-19-2002 17:52:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to NAPA sells Wix, but beware of the price-PCC-AL, 03-19-2002 10:59:39  
Carquest filters are also made by Wix and are reasonably priced. They have been the only filter ever put on my '91 Ram and have no problem at all.



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Underdog NM

03-20-2002 13:40:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Interesting Comparison of Oil Filters and their Construction. in reply to fassey merguson, 03-19-2002 17:52:59  
About 10 years ago I was in the Champion plant in Illinois. I think it was in Albion, IL. There I saw at least 20 different brands being made. A worker there told me that all the filters were the same except for the Motorcraft ones that had thicker paper and more internal welds. I have also been in the Baldwin plant in Baldwin, Wisconsin and I think they make a quality product. I am no expert just a trucker hauling freight at the time.

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