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KASENIT ?

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Rod (NH)

03-06-2002 11:14:53




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Last summer I had to replace the king pins on one side on my Oliver 77. These pins ride inside needle bearings that are installed in the steering knuckle. The needle bearings do not have an inner race but ride directly on the pins. I made new pins out of 1-1/8" dia CR steel. I noticed that the old pins were case-hardened. I ordered a product called KASENIT but it did not arrive before I had to get the tractor back together. I am considering taking it apart again later this spring to attempt to surface-harden these pins. My question is: has anyone used this stuff before? Does it seem to work OK? Does it add any dimension at all (even tenths of thousandths) to the part? My current non-hardened pins fit perfectly in the bearings now but would not if the diameter were any larger.

Thanks,
Rod

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Thanks Everyone - Rod (NH)

03-08-2002 18:42:11




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 Re: KASENIT ? in reply to Rod (NH), 03-06-2002 11:14:53  
Wow! I didn't expect the great response. Lots of good ideas and things to think about for when I do the other side (or re-do the side I've already done with CR only). I think you have saved me from perhaps a disappointing experience with the Kasenit in this instance.

Thanks

Rod



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case931

03-08-2002 08:58:20




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 Re: KASENIT ? in reply to Rod (NH), 03-06-2002 11:14:53  
Have you considered using a piece of chrome plated rod such as would be used for a hydraulic cylinder rod? They are heat treated and tough plus have a chrome surface over 60 Rockwell C. Torrington says a shaft hardness of 58 or greater is needed when roller bearing rides directly on shaft. Have done this several times with good success so far - maybe I'll find out 5 yrs. from now it wasn't such a good idea - but for now that would be my suggestion. Maybe the other guys have a good reason not to use.

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Dave in Mo

03-08-2002 04:36:51




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 Re: KASENIT ? in reply to Rod (NH), 03-06-2002 11:14:53  
I'd use pieces of air hardening tool steel like AISI A4 or D2. It can be bought for about $7/lb precision ground. It then can be heated and air cooled for minimum distortion. A shock tool steel like S5 or S7 would be a good choice too.



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T_Bone

03-07-2002 16:28:20




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 Re: KASENIT ? in reply to Rod (NH), 03-06-2002 11:14:53  
Hi rod,

You might want to get a copy of Advanced Gunsimthing by WF Vickery. It'll teach you alot about metal hardening and what metals to use.

T_Bone



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Mike

03-06-2002 19:26:33




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 Re: KASENIT ? in reply to Rod (NH), 03-06-2002 11:14:53  
My 2c worth. The soft core steel is the best idea.
Use CR and send it to an industrial heat treating outfit that does natural gas case hardening. Their minimum charge is usually $40 or $50, well worth it. Case it 25 or 30 deep. This will produce the hard surface for the bearings and soft core for strength. Warpage,etc probably wont be a problem on this job. The natural gas process produces a job thats as clean as you sent it in,i.e. no scale. If you want more core strength, use a nickel steel like 8620. It machines nicely too. Do not use 4140 or similar, it will be brittle.

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Tom

03-06-2002 18:31:01




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 Re: KASENIT ? in reply to Rod (NH), 03-06-2002 11:14:53  
Try making your part out of "01" (say "oh one") steel, you can harden and temper it at home. A little questioning on this or another forum will tell you how, I would have to look too.



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llamas

03-06-2002 15:41:57




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 Re: KASENIT ? in reply to Rod (NH), 03-06-2002 11:14:53  
Yeah, it's good stuff, but I don't think it's what you want to use for this.

It really does work - heat the part up as described, douse it in the powder, and you get a case on the surface that varies in thickness and hardness, as described. As to size change - yes, it will, and there will be debris and detritus adhering to the surface when you're done. You will need to grind to size.

If you use Kasenit on the pin on which a roller bearing runs, you'll have a very hard, very thin and very brittle outer shell enclosing a relatively soft CR core. I think you will find that the case will quickly crack and fail, at least in a bearing of this size. I would be looking for a base pin which is quite a bit harder to start with, and then maybe case-harden that.

HTH GLWI

llater,

llamas

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Ooops, almost forgot - llamas

03-06-2002 15:52:00




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 Re: Re: KASENIT ? in reply to llamas, 03-06-2002 15:41:57  
Almost forgot - in the interests of your health and safety - Kasenit contains cyanide and lots of it. Both the powder and the fumes will kill you dead if you mess with them.

Some further thought also - Kasenit was first made and sold in the UK for the gunmaking and toolmaking trades, and its purpose was to locally case-harden low-carbon steel parts. A favorite use was to toughen the tips of firing pins, and indeed, gunsmiths still use it today to make the frizzens of flintlocks glass-hard and extra-sparky.

You're looking to make a 1" pin hard and tough. You'll need to get the whoile pin red-hot but not too hot, which may be hard to do with a torch - a furnace or forge may be required. Kasenit will fall apart and fail you totally if you get the part too hot.

I really think you might want to consider another apparaoch.

HTH

llater,

llamas

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Ray,IN

03-07-2002 06:24:08




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 Re: Re: Re: KASENIT ? in reply to Ooops, almost forgot - llamas, 03-06-2002 15:52:00  
Listen to Llamas and Mike, they both offered good advice. I was a toolmaker for 37 years and never have seen anyone use Kasenit for precision work. This product was invented before our "modern" ways relegated it to the specialty shops. Prior to Kasenit, toolmakers used animal hooves to help harden steel. You can buy pretreated steel now that will perform great in your application.



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Fred OH

03-13-2002 10:23:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: KASENIT ? in reply to Ray,IN, 03-07-2002 06:24:08  
Just adding to Ray's post...you can use leather or bones too...anything that gives off carbon as it is burned up...the part absorbs the carbon and makes a hard skin on it. Someone said not to use 4140...that's what I would use...a good tough steel and no fast moving parts connected to it would probably last half as long as factory part. If it wears the bearing out anytime in the near future, just make a bronze bushing to replace it. I never give less than a nickels worth. L8R.....Fred OH

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Tom

03-07-2002 17:45:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: KASENIT ? in reply to Ray,IN, 03-07-2002 06:24:08  
By "pre-treated" do you mean "half hard" or something like Thompson rod?



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Ray,IN

03-07-2002 18:17:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: KASENIT ? in reply to Tom, 03-07-2002 17:45:35  
Tom, By pretreated I mean you buy the steel to the hardness you need without further heat treating. About the hardest machinable steel is Rockwell "C" 52. Harder steel must be ground to size. Surface hardened steel is available for purchase also, but you must be careful not to overheat it when cutting to length. Kasenit is usually only used in a job shop where the part must be machined to specific deminsions for a onetime job order, otherwise the NG furnaces Mark spoke of is used for multiple pieces.

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Jake

03-07-2002 16:23:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: KASENIT ? in reply to Ray,IN, 03-07-2002 06:24:08  
This part can be case hadened but it will have be kept at 1500 for 50 minutes for .020 penetration. One way to eliminate scale etc is to enclose the shaft in a thin tube with Kasenite covering the bottom, sides and top, heat all to temp and time then pour the contents into water. The CO gas will prevent scaling. Good luck



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