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STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel.

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fordson29

03-03-2002 13:23:46




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I just hope it's not a train. I posted a while back about over seas steel. I heard on the news today that Bush is going to do something that Clinton shot down. They say they are going to past the 40% tariff on all imported steel. Now what I am trying to find out. Is this going to bring the prices of scrap back up? Two years ago #1 steel was $3.30 per 100# Now it is .90 cents per 100. (This is in my area) Is this going to open up new foundries? Is this really going to help us. Or is it just going to drive the price of steel out of this world. Other industries will be complaining that the tariffs are not high enough on there items. "MY OPINION" It will drive the prices way up, but save American jobs.. Is it worth it??

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Kevin

03-04-2002 15:44:08




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 Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to fordson29, 03-03-2002 13:23:46  
All right, now foreign steel is more expensive. All products manufactured in the U.S. now cost more to produce made with steel. Therefore all products made overseas and imported are now even cheaper by comparison. Seems to me the the steel tariff hurts us two ways and only helps one.
Expect to see more Chinese and Taiwanese tools people!



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Best thing you can do is to buy American

03-04-2002 09:35:26




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 Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to fordson29, 03-03-2002 13:23:46  
I read all of the comments and
agree with all of them and disagree
with only those people who neglected to give a word. Anyway, my opinion
is that the "buy American" propaganda
can only get stronger by practice.
I know it is not always cheaper to buy something made here, and I know you
can't always tell if the product is
American, but isn't it worth the effort.
I could list example after example, but
I think you know where I am coming from.
Some people may hang on to their jobs
just long enough to make it.

Tim, Ohio

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Jim WI

03-04-2002 10:40:32




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 Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Best thing you can do is to buy American, 03-04-2002 09:35:26  
What happens to those of us who produce things that are sold overseas when "BUY AMERICAN" gets translated in other countries to "COMPRE AL MEJICANO", "KAUFEN SIE DEUTSCHEN", "ACHETEZ LES FRAN�AIS" OR "買物の日本語"?

I guess my job doesn't count?



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Tim, Ohio

03-05-2002 07:12:37




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 Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Jim WI, 03-04-2002 10:40:32  

So, what do you suggest we do to help your situation? I am
ready to help, if I can.



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Jim WI

03-06-2002 10:28:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Tim, Ohio, 03-05-2002 07:12:37  
Best thing to do is NOT kick off a tariff war like the one that happened just before the depression.



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Denny Frisk

03-11-2002 13:29:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Jim WI, 03-06-2002 10:28:25  
Jim's right... We need "FREE Competition", not tariffs... Just about all foreign country's protect themselves with tariff's, Especially the country's that ship so much to the US....If those tariffswould be removed, then the US Would be competitive over-seas again... In the long run, this latest round of steel tariffs will cost some jobs Here in companies that USE steel, about 8 times the number of jobs the tariff may save... and of course the American Consumer will pay more for goods made from either higher priced imported steel or inefficiently made domestic steel. So the tariff really was a "Lose-Lose" deal for all of US.

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Mark Kw

03-04-2002 11:22:11




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 Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Jim WI, 03-04-2002 10:40:32  
Jim, well put! Why can't I sell my goods overseas? Easy, I can't afford to export it. Not because of high tarrifs emposed by other countries but because of restrictions and taxes put on me by the United States government. I can't afford the taxes to get my goods exported. I can't afford these taxes because I get hammered with every other tax and fee because I operate within the USA and I'm a citizen. On the other hand, when it cost me over $10,000 in taxes and fees to start my business here in the USA, non-citizens from the middle east were given grants upwards of a million dollars, part of my tax money, to buy a business from an American who could not afford to operate it anymore. On top of the grants, they are given 7 years completely tax free, no property tax, no fuel taxes, no income taxes, no SSI taxes. All of this while they are NOT citizens. If that ain't enough to make you cry, how about the fact that they are eligible to draw on unemployment, social security and all the other government assistance programs while they are here. All these programs paid for by the AMERICAN working people and handed over to NON americans by our own government..... ...

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llamas

03-05-2002 04:21:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Mark Kw, 03-04-2002 11:22:11  
Your comments about favorable and unfavorable economic conditions for US vs foreign business may well have merit.

Your stories about fabulous grants for foreigners to buy US businesses, seven-year tax holidays and so forth, are complete buncombe. Urban legends, no basis in reality. See here

Link

for example.

llater,

llamas

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Mark Kw

03-05-2002 04:44:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to llamas, 03-05-2002 04:21:30  
OK. If this is nothing more than "urban legends", than why are these grants documented on the books of government agencies? Less than 1/4 mile from my shop a Canadian company is operating a small manufacturing plant. They have been operating here since 1996 and will be leaving the area in 2003 when their 7 years of "tax exemption" expires. Yep, the state of PA along with local governments used this "tax exemption" as a perk to bring their business here. It worked, they're here and they are alreading making plans to leave now that they will have to start paying taxes like the rest of us.

The truck stop barely 800 feet from my shop was purchased from the local owner with a government grant check issued by the state of PA. The new owners, Saudi Arabian citizens, were given the $980,000 grant along with a 5 year tax exemption to take over this business. Hardly "urban legend" when it's clearly documented in the county tax office and the state accounting records. When they had a major diesel spill at this truck stop, guess who paid for the clean-up? Yep, PA state. Why? Because they are not "US citizens" thus they are not required to maintain a private insurance policy to cover such problems like us US citizens are. Since they are not "US citizens" they are also not held liable for damages under the US laws since they are citizens. They walk away free and clear while we are left holding the bag. BTW, now that they have made their money and evaded paying any taxes or clean up costs, they have all returned to Saudi Arabia. As for the truck stop, it's still there. Empty fuel tanks. Tons of garbage laying around and the unpaid road fuel taxes remain unpaid. What is going to be done with the place and unpaid taxes? Nothing. Once again, we, the US citizen taxpayers will get the bill!

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llamas

03-05-2002 04:56:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Mark Kw, 03-05-2002 04:44:14  
So we see how a story grows with the telling.

The state of PA and/or your local government offered property-tax holidays and grants to persons starting new businesses or keeping old ones open. Some persons taking advantage of those programs were not US citizens - for sure, they had to have some sort of legal residency. Are you suggesting that such new-business grants and tax exemptions are only available to foreigners?

You turned that into "foreigners get a complete holiday from all taxes for seven years" - and you included Federal taxes and FICA.

I don't know where you get the idea from that non-citizens are not liable for damages. Whatever the case in the particular situation you describe, I doubt very much that the owners evaded anything because they were not citizens, or because they were "not required" to maintain insuarnce to cover such an eventuality. Are citizens required to maintain such insurance?

It's always tempting to blame the outsider for local woes. However, the tale you started out by telling does not match the tale you are telling now. I suggest that you know a lot less about this than you think you do.

llater,

llamas

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You want proof?

03-05-2002 11:35:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to llamas, 03-05-2002 04:56:35  
C'mon over and ring my bell, I'll show you all the proof you want! YES. The grant program is ONLY open to "NON US citizens" as it is written by PA.

I'm not about to sit here and defend myself from your "speculations" and "assumptions". You want the proof, I got it. Unless you're willing to put some time into finding out the truth, don't waste my time "ASSuming" things!



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llamas

03-05-2002 12:29:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to You want proof?, 03-05-2002 11:35:08  
Here's the entire business financing program matrix from the State of Pennsylvania website. According to the state, this contains every business financing and grant program they offer.

Link

Perhaps you would point out which of these programs is ONLY open to "NON US citizens".

llater,

llamas

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fordson29

03-05-2002 16:54:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to llamas, 03-05-2002 12:29:34  
Well I am not going to get in on the Pa. thing I am in NC., but anyone who thinks the Gov. is being fair is foolish. Here in NC. the population of Mexicans is going out of this world. Why is the Gov. letting them in?? I worked at a factory when imigration came in. You would have thought that someone turned a lion out in there. I almost got run over several times. Most around here are non tax paying and have more rights then me. They want my son to learn to speak Spanish in school so he can live in USA well kiss my a$$!! Laws that make it manditory to put up Spanish signs along with the engish in Hospitals, Schools, Stores, and yes SMALL BUSINESS. Local, state, or federal the Gov. is unfair and it is usually to cover there own a$$eS. Why should our tax $$s have to pay a translator so Mr. Lopez can get his drivers license?? Or the money for my sons education go to pay for one at every school. I wonder how rich I would be if I had all the money from all of them damn signs I can't read. I bet they were made overseas too. Then the money they do make don't go in the bank. They either keep it in there pockets or send it to Mexico and there goes more money that could have bought items in america and paid a few $$ in taxes. The Gov. don't give a rats behind about anything except there image and there wallets. Once you have all the $$ you need the only thing left is power, so they get all they can.

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bob

03-07-2002 05:24:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to fordson29, 03-05-2002 16:54:20  
well spoken Fordson. i personally have nothing against the people themselves ,but have aproblem with companies importing them and taxpayers have to suport them. in a lower post about all the things they have and not working overtime we used to be a socity like that but today we have to have every thing pre cooked etc . I,m not supporting the system as of now but we have made some of our problems with help of govt.

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chainsaw

03-05-2002 23:29:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to fordson29, 03-05-2002 16:54:20  
"HELL-O" TO the Mexican DEFENDERS out there.
Come to Texas to get a belly full of "WET BACK FEVER." ...GOD-ALL-MIGHTY, They are everywhere!!!! Like flies on sh--. Here's a Question for any Mexican defender out there in fantasy land , and I'VE GOT EM NEXT DOOR. Came home tonight bout 9:30 p:m and they are getting a new roof on this house they bought about 3 years ago. Never was surveyed. Cash purchase ? Value ? $75.ooo give or take. A few months ago, they bought a new 2002 red suburban. They also own a late 80's or early 90's bronco,and chevy truck. They are putting new purgo ? floors in their house now. They leave for at least 2 weeks each year, vacation ? Woman don't work. 4 kids, one or more goes to private school. Man couldn't hardly speak english 3 years ago. or so he pretended. He is not educated or even smart. However, such impudence I've never seen. Don't know where he works, most of the time it's a 4 day week, Never over 8 hrs. Never any weekends. So no overtime. He has to be a hourly wage employee. He is not a business owner. So where do they get their money ??? chainsaw.

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More Proof

03-06-2002 11:29:31




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to chainsaw, 03-05-2002 23:29:17  
For anyone who don't believe. This is a toll free call to my phone company. It starts with a recording. Don't worry you will never get a real person. I can't. Check out the No. 3 option they give you. 1-800-672-6242



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OldsterGA

03-04-2002 06:24:24




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 Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to fordson29, 03-03-2002 13:23:46  
If we weren't victims of subsidised industries overseas and if we were still a producing (manufacturing) society instead of a consuming, service society tariffs would not be necessary as we would/could outproduce everyone else per manhour, as we had historically done, and prices would reflect that. Unfortunately we have created a society where common labor is an insult to our high standing in life and whether we like it or not, we had best get used to the idea that other nations and/or parts of the world are controlling our economy more and more every day.

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bob

03-04-2002 05:47:16




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 Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to fordson29, 03-03-2002 13:23:46  
all I can say is i would rather have people drawing decent wages from steel industry as to them working fast food and retail sales we need to put some money in the workers pockets get people from living from paycheck to pay check . buut that is another topic to discuss



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Richard

03-04-2002 04:24:53




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 Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to fordson29, 03-03-2002 13:23:46  
"IF" Tariffs worked the way they are suppose to it would be okay, however it causes the US companies to hike their prices.

Look at the import cars and trucks, GM and Ford just raised their prices even higher because they don't want to leave any money on the table.

Ofcourse this is my opinion only, but it's a dog and pony show.



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paul

03-03-2002 19:33:11




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 Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to fordson29, 03-03-2002 13:23:46  
Something for this forum to think about - old scrap irom farm implements will disappear quicker, cut up for scrap. The $20 bargin pieces will be $40. :)

--->Paul



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fordson29

03-03-2002 21:34:01




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 Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to paul, 03-03-2002 19:33:11  
I don't know about anyone else, but me and a friend have about 3 scrap yards covered. If anything worth saving comes in we grab it. We also have friends that work there that hide the good stuff from the shear and the torch and we slip them a few $$ for there help and they are happy as can be.. Jonathan



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Mark in Md

03-03-2002 16:08:44




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 Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to fordson29, 03-03-2002 13:23:46  
The only ones that the tarrif is going to help is the politicians. The companies here build a product for x number of dollars, if the price of the steel they use goes up 40%, they sure aren't going to eat the increase, the end consumer is. If they are building a product that costs $100. and their input cost goes up 40%, their product now costs $140. but at the same time a foreign company can build the same product for $100. using non tarrif steel. Which one are you going to buy? On top of this the contries that are having the tarrif imposed on them, use products that are made here. Whats to stop them from imposing tarrifs on products that we can make cheaply and sell to them. The only thing this will do is lighten up your wallet a little more. As for the scrap prices, I don't see where this is going help raise the price, until our mills update their methods and machinery. my $.02

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hazfun

03-03-2002 14:05:18




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 Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to fordson29, 03-03-2002 13:23:46  
I sure hope so I inherited a scrap metal yard
1 1/2 years ago.Gosh its been tough.My .5 worth
is the terrif can't hurt.

hazfun7



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Ford Man

03-03-2002 14:03:15




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 Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to fordson29, 03-03-2002 13:23:46  
I work in a machine shop . I was a machinist for about 12 years and now I quote jobs .

We have been buying steel from all over the planet . Canada , Japan , Korea , Russia , England , Italy , etc. . Now when we buy steel , we don't usually know who it is coming from until we get it because we buy it from a distributor so it is not a choice that we make .

Japan for one has been notorious for "dumping" steel on the US for years . Their government will subsidize the steel companies so they can sell it in the US for less than their cost . Same with Japanese cars . All of this is starting to catch up with them .

On the other hand , many US Steel caompanies have not kept up with new technology and many have gone under in the last year or two . Don't blame the steel workers for the high price of US steel , blame the fat cats lining their pockets .

Believe it or not , many products are just not made in the US . Some sizes and types that we buy are only made in Europe . Some are made completely overseas and in some cases , only the hot rolled stock is made overseas and the final rolling is done Stateside .

Right now , we are cutting every penny from jobs that we quote and are still losing work to the competition . A lot of shops are almost giving the work away just to stay open for another week or so . If steel prices go up , more and more shops are not going to be able to stay alive and are going under .

All of the folks from suppliers to other shops agree that the tarrifs are going to hurt a lot more than they will help .

Ford Man

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Mark Kw

03-04-2002 11:14:03




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 Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Ford Man, 03-03-2002 14:03:15  
I have to second what "Fordson29" said. I run my own fabrication and repair business. I deal with everything from heavy mining and construction equipment to fleet truck service and manufacturing.

What effect the increase in the tarrifs on steel is going to have has yet to be determined. Like Fordson29, I also buy from a supplier and have little control over where my steel is mfg'ed. Depending upon what I am buying, I sometimes have a choice but in most cases, I don't.

Before anyone jumps for joy over this, you should think about some things. First off, the US steel industry has not kept up times with other countries. Japan makes some of the best specialty alloys available since they have new automated facilities that can produce batch after batch of steel with very tight tolerances. Likewise, Taiwan also has some state-of-the-art facilities.

This aside, US steel mfg'ers have had to take a pounding in many directions. Unions fighting for more money and keeping workers on the job. EPA and DEP, just two of the government agencies who crawl up the mfg'ers @$$es every minute of the day looking for violations and dictating new environmental policies faster than most companies can read them let alone comply with them.

Understandable, the unions are there to look after the workers and pressure the company into keeping employees rather than eliminating jobs.

Understandable, agencies like DEP and EPA are supposed to do thier job which is prevent companies from illegal and unsafe dumping of waste, hazmat, air polution, ect.

Then you have the little home town action groups and such that pick at the mfg'ers as well. In most cases, these groups go on hearsay rather than facts, yet the outcome is higher cost to the company.

On top of the above, you add the "anti-big business" liberal politicians raising taxes. Which of course means nothing because corporations do NOT pay taxes, consumers do! Sure, the taxe rates the businesses pay go up and directly proportional the cost of the goods go up at the retail end. So who's paying the taxes? Yep, you are.

So add up all these things and you can see why big industry in the United States is dying. If you have a company that is forced to pay employees who do nothing high wages, you then force the company to install and maintain tight controls on their emissions, you then force the company to maintain water supplies that were not contaminated by them in the first place... you see where I'm going with this?

Here is the heart of the old times and old industry, places like Bethlehem Steel, US Steel, Mack trucks, Allentown Paints, Dutch Boy Paints, Excide Batteries, Herculese Powder, Berillium, Palmerton Zinc and the anthracite coal industry. Yep, that's my neck of the woods. I know the area, I know the business and I know the problems. Many of the places above are no longer in business and most of those that are remain so in name only.

Some of these places went under by their own accord and some raped the area for what they got and left behind a mess for others to absorb the cost of. Because of these rapists, many other businesses also suffered greatly.

Cheap oil killed the coal industry. Very few coal operations remain, none of them deep mine and the surface mining ones are now responsible for cost of the recovery of former surface mining disasters left behind by rapists. Now the remaining coal businesses are not only taxed on their own properties and profits but are taxed with the cost of others as well. Still, there is no let up from the people here at all. Government aside, the people are their own worst enemy.

In a land littered with open strip mines, known to most of us as "the land of big black holes in the ground" the people resist change even when it's for the better. This place is a minimum of 20 years behind the rest of the world. Corruption is still alive and well here from the government down to the unions and some workers. Everyone is in someone elses pocket and those that are not loose out. The biggest selling point to bring industry to PA is "low wages" and "protections under agreement". What that means is the unions have gone from protecting the worker to protecting their pockets. Govenrment sponsored industry building agencies cut deals with the businesses and government officials to line thier pockets. It's nothing but one big ugly game of corruption from one end to the other. The only way to get ahead is to buy it with money or favors. When you don't have the favors to offer and the money runs out, where does that leave you? OUT OF BUSINESS!

Let's face it folks, it does not take rocket science for anyone to figure out that a company in business to make money is going to make as much as possible by whatever means is necessary. Why should a business operate here in the US and be forced to comply with regulation after regulation when they can take their operation somewhere that does not give a dang about regulation? That's nothing to do with patriotism, it has to do solely with profit. If a company here is forced to pay 500 workers $50,000 per year to sit around and do next to nothing, does it not make more business sense to move that business where they can pay 1000 workers $2000 per year to do the same amount of work? The goods still sell for the same price so the increase is profits. Now people expect the remaining businesses to make up the slack and be able to compete with a company who is spending less on labor and does not have to spend a dime on evironmental matters. It's impossible to do.

There has to be a compromise somewhere or this is going to be a flop. People need to give a little, unions need to give a little and the government needs to give a little or we are all going to loose. Reasonable evironmental policies. Reasonable wages. Reasonable taxing. What I mean by "reasonable": Don't force a company to install air polution scrubbers on smoke stacks that don't work. Don't expect the company to maintain workers they don't need. Don't expect to get paid to do nothing or get paid a small fortune for non-skilled labor.

I've been on both sides of this one folks. I've been the poor sucker working in unsafe conditions for 7 bucks an hour and I've been at management level running a production facility with 450 employees under me. When I was on the production line, I paid my union dues only to have the union reps sell out the company at my cost. When I got into the managment position, I got paid only after I showed a profit for the production process. When I went off on my own and thought I could have less headaches being an independent iron worker, I found myself at the mercy of the corruption in the unions. It did not take long for me to tell 'em all to got to he11 and started my own business. Sure, the first 7 years were not easy. High start-up costs, paying fees and taxes everytime I turned around. Surviving on $.25 a pack instant soup and using coffee grinds twice over to get by. Now, 10 years later, I got myself something. I did not buy my way into a union. I did not favor my way into government contracts. I did not sucker people out of their money. I built what I have with my own blood and sweat. Paying my way with money I earned, not money I stole. Working for me, not some CEO or union boss. No, it was not easy and it's still not easy to maintain a business. I deal more and more every day with more and more government regulations, taxes and fees. The you got to deal with the money grubs looking to sue you for a free ride. What does it all mean to me. Simple. I got where I am by working my @$$ off and plating the game as best I could. I still work my @$$ off 16 hours a day seven days a week. What do I have to show for it, not a lot but everything I got is mine, bought and paid for with the scars I carry on my body and the blood and sweat I spilled getting them.

If you think for a minute that raising a tarrif is going to be some magical cure for years of destruction, you are sadly mistaken and YOU are going to pay the price in the end.

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Tim B

03-05-2002 18:13:17




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 Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Mark Kw, 03-04-2002 11:14:03  
Mark,

Whew! I'm not sure about everything you said, but I think you hit one think on the head - though I'll express it differently.

The main reason (though not the only reason) that manufacturing work has left this country is because our people have positioned themselves (against corporations) to have a higher standard of living than just about any other nation, and transportation technology is now such that anything can be made anywhere there is cheap labor (and yes, less environmental regulation, saftey regulation, etc.)and can be shipped safely and economically to anywhere there is money. Is our system perfect? Of course not, but it's the closest thing yet that man has come up with. America is Great! It's just a fact of life that we have a world economy, you can make steel in contries that are not great, and companies are in business to make money (too much money for too few people who work there).

I am middle class, living in 21st century America. In the grand scheme of things, you really can't get any richer than that!

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G.B.

03-04-2002 22:41:36




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 Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Mark Kw, 03-04-2002 11:14:03  
Are you sure you don't type on the computer all the time instead of working 16 hours a day?



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Mark Kw

03-05-2002 04:25:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to G.B., 03-04-2002 22:41:36  
No, I don't type on the computer all day. I type fast and speak my piece when I take a break from work. I have no choice but to spend at least 4 days a month in this office doing paper work. About 4 hours a month is set aside for running my business such as writing and paying bills. The rest is keeping up with the government and legal BS so I don't end up getting sued or going to jail.

Unless you run a business and have to deal with all the associated BS, you will never understand what it takes to make a living on your own. Things never end when you are self employed, ask anyone who is. You work 8 to 10 hours doing other people's work (IE: making money) then you got another 6 to 8 hours doing your own work (IE: maintaining trucks, equipment, facilities, ect.) Then you have to take time to keep up with all the new regulations, new proceedures, new equipment and so forth.

It's not 1950 anymore. I keep trying to tell my dad this too since he does not understand why it was necessary for me to paint a yellow border around the step in front of the door or install "Watch you step" and lighted "exit" signs at each door. You have to spend more time and money trying to keep from getting sued or fined by the government than you do making money.

Until you have done it, don't take for granted that being self employed is some easy ride. While you're sitting there watching TV, I'm sitting here trying to keep up with all the changes.

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Ben

03-06-2002 17:32:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Mark Kw, 03-05-2002 04:25:19  
Hi Mark Kw,
I appreciate you too. More than the rest of the guys will ever know.

Yours truly,
Ben Jurqunov



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paul

03-06-2002 08:51:31




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Mark Kw, 03-05-2002 04:25:19  
I hear you Mark. As a farmer, running into the same stuff. And thanks for all the help you give folks here too - your replies are always aprreciated by me.

--->Paul



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If you ever get anoyed, look at me I'm self employed

03-05-2002 22:30:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Mark Kw, 03-05-2002 04:25:19  
Hey! I resent that! Its HARD sitting in front of this tv all day, and my butt has really flattened out. Oh man, I gotta GET UP again for another beer. Where's the wife when you need her..... ..... .....



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John C. (ca)

03-05-2002 09:50:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STEEL Light at the end of the tunnel. in reply to Mark Kw, 03-05-2002 04:25:19  
Mark,,, I wanted to thank you and all of the other people out there Doing what it take to run their small business. Small business is what keeps this country running. I salute you Thanks
John C. (ca)



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