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Aluminum welding question

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Chuck

02-13-2002 16:29:32




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I have been considering trying to learn how to mig aluminum. I currently mig soft steel and occasionally thin guage stainless. Been using 75% argon 25% co2 for shielding gas. I understand that argon is preferred gas for alum. My question is, what would happen if I tried to use 75/25 mixture on aluminum? My aluminum needs would be for thin (under 1/8").

I really don't have enough need to buy another tank for a second shielding gas. I have seen it done with ox/ac. gas welding also, but haven't tried that either.

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Trucker

02-21-2002 17:46:17




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 Re: Aluminum welding question in reply to Chuck, 02-13-2002 16:29:32  
Far as I know you have to use argon gas to weld aluminum.What I did before was exchange my empty co2 for an argon cylinder,then used the rest of the Argon on steel once I got the aluminum done.If you get it off a truck he might have a small bottle he could sell you if you dont need very much.You can buy a small bottle somewhere that sells welders for about 50 dollars and have it filled with argon where you get your bottles.If they dont want to do that I would look for a place that will.I didnt notice a whole lot of difference using argon on steel,but it costs more.Really to weld mild steel you only need co2,that mix might be better,but its not all that much better.CO2 wont work to weld aluminum,so I feel fairly sure mix wont,and argon will weld steel.If you get it off a truck he might just leave you a bottle if you got it back the next week or something.It doesnt hurt to ask.

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tractorboy

02-16-2002 17:11:11




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 Re: Aluminum welding question in reply to Chuck, 02-13-2002 16:29:32  
Just go buy yourself some of those new aluminum welding rods for your buzz box and see if you like them works fine for me on most things and as usual practice practice practice . It helps and thats my 2 cents worth.



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chuck

02-14-2002 10:22:38




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 Re: Aluminum welding question in reply to Chuck, 02-13-2002 16:29:32  
Thanks Mark. I am sure that I will end up as you suggested, but I still have another stupid question. What would mild steel do with pure argon shielding? I assume that the answer is lousy penetration or flow or both, but I MIG thin stuff mostly anyway. I have been told that stainless would prefer pure argon to 75/25.

Regarding the gas welding. Agree about the county fair guys. I saw it done at an aircraft welding forum at the Experimental Aircraft Assoc big deal in Oshkosh. It is an art, and I will try that sometime myself just to try it. Problem holding me back now, is that over the years I have lost my "0" tip for my old Purox handle and can't replace it. The #2 in it now will make a lot of the aluminum puddles that you described.

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Mark Kw

02-14-2002 04:30:24




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 Re: Aluminum welding question in reply to Chuck, 02-13-2002 16:29:32  
Chuck, AL is best done with a push-pull unit or spool gun otherwise you will have nothing but feed problems. You can use some gas mixes for special purpose work but the most common is using strait 100% argon. 75/25 will not work on alum at all.

Some alloys of AL can be gas welded but this is an art in itself. Those guys you see at the fairs and such "welding" AL with a propane torch are not "welding", they are soldering. There are AL solders out there that work similar to brazing but do not have a lot of strength. The process, while simple sounding, is not easy to master. Just a little too much heat and you got a pile of melted spatter at your feet what was once the piece you were trying to solder.

If you don't have a lot of work to do, it is best if you let a pro shop do it. If you got a lot of work to do, plan on dumping at least $2000 to $5000 depending on the set-up you get.

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T_Bone

02-14-2002 12:16:52




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 Re: Re: Aluminum welding question in reply to Mark Kw, 02-14-2002 04:30:24  
Hi Chuck,
What Mark said but I like using a 75%helium/25%argon gas mix for Mig or Tig welding Alumnium as the arc will alot hotter with helium gas. Although the 75%argon/25%Co2 will work your weld will have prositity included with-in the weld along with alot of AL splatter on the surface.

You can use oxy/act to gas weld AL. You can use AL stick rod with the flux left on or use a scrap piece of AL with a flux made from borax with alcolhol added to make a paste and just dip the filler rod into the flux when needed. If you keep your filler rod with-in the gas flame zone then a flux is not needed. Be sure to remove all flux when done welding as AL will continue to oxidize if the flux is left on.

There is a couple tricks to Gas or Tig welding Al. As your heating the base metal you will notice the weld puddle will start swrilling and that is the correct time to add filler rod and move backwards/forwards. I like moving away from my weld puddle as you can see how much filler rod needs to be added. A split second latter wrinkles appear with-in the weld puddle and if you don't quickly remove the heat or move forawrd then your weld puddle will end up on the floor.

If you Tig weld SS you will also notice this swrilling action of the weld puddle. On SS that means you have just achived 100% penetration of the base metal and if your heat(amps) are set correct then you can hold this weld puddle and let it develope to the maxmium width wanted (1.25 times the thickness the base metal equals the weld puddle width your wanting) until your weld puddle drops to the inside then adding filler rod and moving forward at the same time thus achiving and inside weld puddle the same width as the outside weld puddle. The inside weld bead material is from the base metal dropping thru and you add the filler rod for the build-up of the outside weld bead. Thats how you achieve a weld that looks the same on the inside as it does on the out side.
So if you don't want 100% base metal penetration so it "sugars" the inside, don't let your weld puddle swrill.
Sugar means the inside weld bead oxidizes without using a purge gas usually argon at about 5cuft/min. I explained this process as it can be applied to any weld puddle control therory of any type of base metal and is the best example a welder will have to "see" the "controlled" process in "slow" motion.

You can also use a chill bar clamped to the backside of your weld joint base meterial.
A chill bar is a thick piece of metal, usually 1/2" x 2" wide copper, used to draw the heat thru the base metal but hold the weld puddle from dropping thru and the weld puddle will not stick to the base metal. On welding AL you can use a piece of "clean" steel, no scalling, SS or CU. On welding Copper a SS chill bar works best. On welding carbon steel a CU, AL or SS chill bar will work.

While welding AL you will notice a black oxide scale appear on the surface and the weld puddle becomes very difficult to control. Stop and remove this black oxide with a new SS wire brush or new grinding wheel. It's very important to use new wheels as if the wheels had beem used on Cu or Fe you can't get rid of the black oxides.

I also like using tri-mix cover gas of 75%helium/24%argon/1%Co2 for my small 115v Mig welder as it allows me to weld a thicker base material for a given Amp setting. I use this tri-mix on every type of welding process Tig, Mig and as a purge gas. I use a Tee after the flow meter with a needle valve to control pruge gas flow. I only need one flow meter and one type of gas that way.

Pure argon can be used for a cover or purge gas but is very expensive when welding Fe comparred to Co2. On 316 SS a tri-mix needs to be used.

Although LP/air, Acet/air can be used to gas weld AL it's very slow and has a sever thickness limitation wheres oxy/acet does not.

T_Bone

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Rod (NH)

02-14-2002 17:09:31




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 Re: Re: Re: Aluminum welding question in reply to T_Bone, 02-14-2002 12:16:52  
T_Bone,

Have you ever used any type of chemical pre-treatment for the cleaning of aluminum prior to TIG welding? I was reading the label instructions on a chemical used for treating aluminum prior to painting the other day and noticed that it indicated "prepares aluminum for welding". It's called "Alumiprep 33", made by AMCHEM and distributed to the auto refinish industry by PPG. I usually have a problem with the black oxide (I know, I don't clean properly...I admit it!) and was curious if anyone had ever used such stuff prior to welding.

Thanks for any comment.

Rod

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T_Bone

02-14-2002 17:54:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Aluminum welding question in reply to Rod (NH), 02-14-2002 17:09:31  
Hi Rod,

When working hot metal I stay from all chemicals, period! The reason is no what you use will vaporize and there's just no way to keep from breathing any fumes, safe or not. Even alcohol will off gas and will effect the welding puddle.

The SS wire brush I don't have to worry about and it does a great job.

T_Bone



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T_Bone With Corrections!

02-14-2002 15:23:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Aluminum welding question in reply to T_Bone, 02-14-2002 12:16:52  
A chill bar is a thick piece of metal, usually 1/2" x 2" wide copper, used to draw the heat thru the base metal but hold the weld puddle from dropping thru and the weld puddle will not stick to the "chill bar" base metal


Filler rods also need precleaned with emery paper to remove oxides exspecially while Tig welding. On Fe filler rod, clean filler rod too bear metal as well as clean base metal 1" on either side of the weld joint or it will cause prosisity in the weld.

T_Bone

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chuck

02-15-2002 11:48:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Aluminum welding question in reply to T_Bone With Corrections!, 02-14-2002 15:23:16  
T Bone - Thanks for the wealth of info. I also learned from your posting to Bob today about the ear plug trick. One more question - you mentioned that you use tri gas for all processes. Does this mean base metals also? If tri gas works well with soft steel and stainless as well as Aluminum, sounds like that is what I need. You mentioned that the He allowed better penetration. Any problems with thin guage and tri gas?

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T_Bone

02-15-2002 14:01:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Aluminum welding question in reply to chuck, 02-15-2002 11:48:59  
Hi Chuck,

That pictular Tri-mix may be had to get in your area. They say it makes a difference with the 1%Co2 added but I really don't know if it does as I've used 75He/25Ar and it worked just fine and that is a very popular gas mix. There is another tri-mix thats 75He/24Ar/1-O2 that also works well but again I wasn't overly impressed Vs using the 75He/25Ar.

Yes when we spec a cover/purge gas it's done for the base metal as the filler rod will be of base metal composistion. Alot of times on the rare mix metals while Tig welding I would use a scrap piece of base material for a filler rod providing I could shear a thin enough strip for weld joint.

The He gas is like the difference of using Mapp/oxy to using acet/oxy a very noticeable difference. You will not have a problem with welding light gauge metal but will need to use lower amps.

Another trick that I used while Tig welding extreamly lite gauge metal and tried to adjust my amps low enough but could not,(out of the machine amp range) is using a 1/8" x 36" filler rod on the ground clamp. Vise-grip Clamp one end of the filler rod to the bench and let it hang to the floor then attach your ground clamp to the other end. The creates a "dropper resister" with the filler rod taking the amps. Be careful as not too touch the filler rod as it can get "cherry red" depending on how many amps your dropping. This makes a welding machine with a 30 or 40amp low setting down to the 15amp range. You can really fine tune your amps this way as you can still use the machines low amperage control and this will work on any welding machine.

Glad I could help!

T_Bone

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Chuck

02-15-2002 15:55:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Aluminum welding question in reply to T_Bone, 02-15-2002 14:01:00  
Thanks again T Bone. Would the 75he/25ar with or without the 1% work on mild steel?



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T_Bone

02-15-2002 17:54:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Aluminum welding question in reply to Chuck, 02-15-2002 15:55:08  
Hi Chuck,

Sure will. Keep in mind that all cover gases will work for any of the common metals. The He mix just adds to the welding capability, well basiclly anyway as theres a benefit to the metalurgical properitys too but I don't want to get into that as thats too much typing.

SS mixs seam to need mixed gases. Common SS types, 304, 308, 309 like argon or mix gases.

T_Bone



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