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Sputtering engine

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Stevie Dynahoe

12-30-2001 06:26:22




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First off, I just found this board and it looks incredible! As I need some help, I can fix or build anything but unfortunatelt know nothing about diesel engines such as my Detroit Diesil 3 cyl. on my just purchased 1969 Dynahoe 160 series. Machine ran great for 6 weekends then seemed to start stallling and losing some power when operating the hoe. So I changed the fuel strainer and filter, filled them back up and now it's running worse. What happens is it runs smooth for maybe 2 minutes then if I let it idle it will soon start to sputter at which point the throttle has no efffect on this state the engine gets in. But if I keep it at 1700rpm it just seems to purr? In the sputtering condition the smoke is grey or white so I think lack of fuel? I can't even see where three fuel injectors go in the block? The previous owner sais he always ran heating oil and that with diesel fuel it ran poorly, why is that?I am running home heating oil now but I did put 10 gallons of diesel in there before. I am also looking to purchase a service/diagnostic repair manual for this, anyone know where to get that? Any help will be so much appreciated. Thank you.

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bill bva

01-02-2002 17:09:48




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 Re: Sputtering engine in reply to Stevie Dynahoe, 12-30-2001 06:26:22  

# 1 fuel is kerosene # 2 fuel is diesel/heating oil



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Brokenwrench

01-02-2002 16:35:12




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 Re: Sputtering engine in reply to Stevie Dynahoe, 12-30-2001 06:26:22  
You either have a blockage in your fuel line from the tank to the pump or it is sucking a litte bit of air at a fitting or pump or primary filter housing. At low rpm the pump can't overcome this, as the rpm increases then pump creates enough fuel flow to run smoothly. As for the heating oil/diesel fuel discussion, I think you will find they are the same If you are using off-road diesel. Here in Maryland my fuel co. filled my heating oil tank and my off road diesel tank off of the same truck only difference is I paid tax on the heating oil.

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ron g

01-01-2002 09:36:14




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 Re: Sputtering engine in reply to Stevie Dynahoe, 12-30-2001 06:26:22  
where ya at, honestly it is hard to picture, would take me bout 10 mins in the feild



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Greg D.

01-01-2002 07:27:00




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 Re: Sputtering engine in reply to Stevie Dynahoe, 12-30-2001 06:26:22  
Well isn`t it a wonder if fuel oil is fuel oil wether # 1 or 2 then why does the Dtroit manual make SPECIFIC requirement for using #1 and #2????? Agree if you are prospecting above the Arctic circle by all means leave the #1 in. Outside of that, and in accordance with Detroit specs. DUMP IT!!!!! Why will people argue about argue with mfgs. specs on specific items when the manual is clear as can be???? Can anyone explain that to me? I must be realy dumb because I tend to go with mfg. specs on items like that. Sorry I used your time. The engine masters above will get you straight. Now if they only knew wether it was a 53 or a 71 series 3 cylinder.

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Stevie Dynahoe

01-01-2002 08:39:44




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 Re: Re: Sputtering engine in reply to Greg D., 01-01-2002 07:27:00  
It is a 53 series. I of course always follow the specs in a manual, but when I have never before owned a diesel hoe and the previous owner slings me this stuff about " it doesn't run well on diesel, the old timers all say bla blah about the early detroits" and he ran it like that for 8 yrs. why question that until something happens? It's not like he was selling me the fuel oil and I trusted his advice. But I do appreciate your input.

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HTR

12-31-2001 20:03:15




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 Re: Sputtering engine in reply to Stevie Dynahoe, 12-30-2001 06:26:22  
Agree with Ron, remove the return line, and watch return flow until the miss condition starts. If the return flow wanes or stops it is probably a plugged fitting at the tank or a fuel line or fitting in the circuit.

If you have good fuel flow, I would pull the valve cover and watch the fuel tube and injector racks (that is the three little plungers that go into the injectors) to see if the govenors are trying to give it more fuel or trying to give it less fuel when it starts to miss. If the govenor tries to give more fuel, that is push the racks in, you are back to not getting enough fuel. With the later fuel tube one screw adjustment, if it tries to pull the racks out,less fuel, it could be a binding rack in one of the injectors. This causes the stuck injector to give more fuel, while the govenors shut the other two down and be running on only one cylinder.

The fuel pump is a gear pump with a weep hole. Usully if the pump is bad it will leak fuel, but I have seen them draw air and not leak fuel, this also causes strange running conditions.

Get a book and go over the adjustments, probably need to be done even if that is not your problem now.

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ron g

01-01-2002 04:39:44




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 Re: Re: Sputtering engine in reply to HTR, 12-31-2001 20:03:15  
one thing i forgot, has happened here-- plugged vent in tank or cap.ron



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ron g

12-31-2001 18:58:23




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 Re: Sputtering engine in reply to Stevie Dynahoe, 12-30-2001 06:26:22  
hmmmm i think, fuel oil is fuel oil sorry, 1-2, different tax, maybe aditive package. sometimes not. ask you fuel supplier, you will be in awe, tax, is it here thats all.
now is that a 53 or 71
can walk ya though all of it
blower box- some have the shut down some do not, make sure it is open,guess a fast trick is return line to tank- remove- have can ready. start motor, fuel should pee right out fast, if not well then---they do not run well
honestly it sounds to be plugged fuel something, tank line--little darlings and the sand pail,has happened. fuel pump, well simple little thing, thats it new bout 40$
remand injectors bout 40$ here
settin the rack is simple settin height simple
spend some time follow lines need the tank fuel line
remove- fuel should pee right out,
make sure fuel shut off is wide open.
on to the trans pump- should be a fitler ahead and behind it, if your lazy like me- all ya do if open-spin what ever the sencondy -- looking for good flow, guess what i am trying to say if the tank is above all this mess, you start opening things up you will a mess- thats good, if no fuel-- tank below engine then ya have to crank it or pressize the fuel tank, no more then 3. psi not 30
other thing - just went down this road my self, dumb me, had me wonderin bout 10 mins. fuel shut off was creepin out. found that all better,
if it starts good cold then it is not ill, just starvin for fuel.
i do have here the book on 53, 71,
they look scary not at all, very simple and unloved by most
now may i ask if it has cans for filters on spin on, and are they hooked up- it happens.how cold is it there to ?

ron

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Stevie Dynahoe

01-01-2002 07:13:10




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 Re: Re: Sputtering engine in reply to ron g, 12-31-2001 18:58:23  
Tank is above the filters which are held on with through bolts - I just changed both. I don't know where to even get gaskets for this engine so I'm hesitant to remove any covers.If I keep it above 1700rpm it seems smooth, only when I let it sit at or just above idle does it die? Then white or grey smoke and throttle has no affect. I don' know how to identify the type engine just that it says detroit diesel. But I did see 53 written down on some paper that came with it.Thanks for your help.

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Greg D.

12-31-2001 07:07:27




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 Re: Sputtering engine in reply to Stevie Dynahoe, 12-30-2001 06:26:22  
First off it`s called a DIESEL engine for a reason and they call it DIESEL fuel for a reason. Get that junk out of the system and clean out as much as you can from the tank and lines and such. When ths engine starts does it hit on all three cylnders or does it take a while to get all three cleaned out and to fire? The lack of throttle effect when running like you say would be fuel related,but fuel supply or injector related????? ? If it was my engine, I would go with three exchange injectors and check the fuel pump draw and make sure it maintains the vacuum. Get fresh DIESEL fuel into the systm, make sure the blower shut off flap isn`t half closed off, check the governor linkage to the fuel tube. Install new fuel filters and fire it up. I`d check with your local Detroit dealer for manual. Any 53 series engine book will cover what you have. Good luck.

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Stevie Dynahoe

12-31-2001 15:38:51




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 Re: Re: Sputtering engine in reply to Greg D., 12-31-2001 07:07:27  
Yes it does seem to becoming harder to start recently but it's colder now also. When it does fire it does run great for about 1.5mins then the sputtering which almost sounds like loading up starts, but as I said the smoke is not black. Thanks for the fuel advisement but bear in mind this machine ran for years on heating oil for the previous owner and for 20 hrs. or so for me until this stuff started.
How do I check the fuel draw and the maintaining of vacuum as you said? Fuel filters are brand new, and where is the blower flap located.And where the heck are the injectors? Can I clean them? Thank you for any of your help.

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Greg D.

12-31-2001 17:40:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Sputtering engine in reply to Stevie Dynahoe, 12-31-2001 15:38:51  
I`m sure it did run for years on the heating fuel. It would also run for a long time with dirt in the air system before results show up. If you find the fuel lines coming from the tank, one will go to he primary filter, then to the fuel pump. My book says the pump is either governor or blower mounted for an inline engine. The pump fittings will also be marked in and out. Renove the inlet line and install a fuel pressure vacuum gauge and with the governor in the off position crank the engine and see what the gauge shows. When you stop, it should maintain the vacuum it just created. The air flap is located under the air intake mounted onto the blower housing. There will be a rod running through the cover with a latch on one end to hold the flap open,make sure it is completely open. If you remove the valve cover you will discover the injectors. The latge fuel tube will be connected to the governor and will be what is used to raise or lower engine R.P.M.. A word of warning, It looks VERY complicated to tune up, and unfortunately the manual is written in such a manner to assume the person reading it already knows the procedure. At that point it can become VERY confusing!!!!! !! If you`re not sure, get help to save $$$$$ in the long run. Good luck!!!!! !

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Stevie Dynahoe

01-01-2002 06:57:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Sputtering engine in reply to Greg D., 12-31-2001 17:40:13  
First off thanks again to all of you as with your help and a manual (anyone know a website I can aqcuire one at? and how to identify my motor?) hopefully I can figure this out. The previous owner didn't seem to take very good care of this machine and I as a maintenance machinist am meticuolous. Unfortunately I feel stupid when it comes to diesel or to some of the terms you people are using, this is why I must soon locate a manual. What is the blowers function in a diesel engine? what is the purpose of the air flap, is it like a throttle body that opens as accelerated. Should it be closed at start up? I will try to buy a fuel pump gauge today if anything is open. I must say though, all this seemed to start just after I put 10 gallons of diesel fuel in it. I was told that Detroit diesels ran better with fuel oil, I am not trying to save money, just do the right thing. Could it have ran better with fuel oil due to a poorly maintained engine with low compression and soforth? I just can't understand why it ran so well and then this, I really think it's something simple and I hope not the injector pump as someone had said to me that it could be and they are over 1000$ rebuilt. I'm gonna try and see what the return line does. Happy New Year!

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HTR

01-01-2002 15:05:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sputtering engine in reply to Stevie Dynahoe, 01-01-2002 06:57:28  
I am not very good at written communication, but will try to answer some of your questions.
The 53 series Detroit diesel is a 2 cycle engine. It has no intake valves, may have 2 or 4 exhaust valves per cylinder depending on set up. The cylinder sleeves have port holes at the bottom of the sleeve, the sleeves are surrounded by an air chamber in the block, this area for air is called the air box. The blower is simply a vane type air pump, 2 roller, 6 lobe, to pump air under pressure to the air box. Being a two cycle engine , the strokes are compression and power.To provide intake and exhaust the blower does the work. As the power stroke pushes the piston down, at the bottom of the piston travel, the port holes in the sleeves are uncovered, and the cam and valve train open the exhaust valves. Pressure air from the blower in the air box forces air through the cylinder and out the exhaust valves to purge the cylinder. As the piston reaches the bottom of the stroke the ext. valves close, and the blower forces air into the cylinder through the port holes, before the piston covers the holes, this is the charge air for the compression stroke. The flap referred is a saftey device located between the blower and the air box, sometimes referred to as an emergency stop. It is usually used for shut down on engines equipped with Murphy saftey switches, or a pull cable, in case of engine run away. It remains all the way open during normal operation, or closed all the way for emergency shut down, no air, no run. The injectors in the 53 are true injectors, meaning they do their own pumping and metering of the fuel. They are actuated by the third rocker arm in the valve train. They do not have an expensive fuel injection pump, just a low pressure, gear type charge pump to supply fuel to the injectors. Charge fuel pressure is controlled by an orfice fitting, where the return line, to the fuel tank, is fastened to the cylinder head. The fuel tube is the hollow shaft that runs the length of the head under the valve cover.It is fastened with a pin and clevis at the front of the engine to a rod that runs through the head to the govenors, and is called the fuel rod. The fuel tube has three arms that run down to the injectors racks to move them in and out of the injectors to meter the fuel. The rack is the little plunger, in each injector, that moves when the fuel tube turns if you move the throttle, or the govenor moves the fuel tube.

I don't think you have a major problem. Maybe fuel restriction, air being drawn into system, or bad fuel. Although these things will usually run on anything short of gasoline, mud or jelly.

Have you removed the return line to see if you have a good flow of air free fuel.

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Stevie Dynahoe

01-01-2002 17:37:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sputtering engine in reply to HTR, 01-01-2002 15:05:46  
HTR, All these posts are helpful but thank you especially for that one. Certainly helps me better understand the workings of this diesel engine. Two stroke? No intake valves - absolutely amazing - had no idea even remotely how this stuff works until that post. At least I now have some sort of knowledge as to how this thing works. As for Ron thanks for offering but I'll just bet your not anywhere near Middleborough, Mass. Thanks to all again.

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ron g

01-01-2002 15:46:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sputtering engine in reply to HTR, 01-01-2002 15:05:46  
fuel problem= not getting enuff,does not respond to throttle. got bored here-not good- can make the same thing happen on a 353 by just turning the fuel shut off on the tank? ya get bored after all- thought about your problem, figged i would try it in the lab, same thing just as you have writen,i make it happen here, Steve i think maybe after doing that,here- your fix will be cheap. thank you HTR for the voice of reality. the reason i say that here home heatin oil and off road deisel is the same, because it is-one day corned the fuel man bout that, why the price difficre--- last years heating season. gross repciets tax- hahaha. this year they have all new KW's for tankers? food for thought- struck it rich in oil
ron

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