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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

msd ignition

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Leland B

02-03-2007 13:09:28




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Got a MSD 6A off a race car can I use this on my M Farmall ? With a petronics electronic points? If so how do you hook up? Do not have the wiring diagram. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks




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rangerman

02-04-2007 19:32:16




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to Leland B, 02-03-2007 13:09:28  
it only takes one spark to fire a combustion mixture



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buickanddeere

02-05-2007 10:22:32




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to rangerman, 02-04-2007 19:32:16  
If the mixture is borderline lean/rich or the plug fouled with a fleck of carbon. The extra sparks may light the mixture where the single spark lost it's chance. This is where a MSD equiped machine will start or start on the 1st rotation. Where the same machine with single spark may need several rotations of cranking. Same goes for a high compression engine that is running a little rich for cooling/detonation resisitance.Or if it leans out on the top end. A MSD system will drive a spark across a shorting/fouled plug that a points ignition system won't. A MSD equiped engine will make the same HP with less spark advance and a lower chance of detonation/knock.

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JD hauler

02-04-2007 11:39:32




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to Leland B, 02-03-2007 13:09:28  
Yes, reliability and extended plug life is really what its all about on the msd sytem, and things stay tuned better.



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JD hauler

02-03-2007 19:36:38




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to Leland B, 02-03-2007 13:09:28  
ok, here goes, the heavy red wire goes to the battery + side, the heavy black wire goes toe the battery - side, the white wire on the msd box goes to the black wire on the pertronix unit, the small red wire on the msd goes to the red wire on the pertronix, and then goes to keyed or switched 12 volts. The black wire goes to the - side of the coil, and the orange wire goes to the + side of the coil, you wont use the two wires for the magnetic pickup, you can plug your tach into the tach plug on the side of the msd box. I hope this works for you.

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Bob

02-03-2007 13:13:29




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to Leland B, 02-03-2007 13:09:28  
Try the lin below. IIRC, they DO show a hookup with Pertronix, SOMEWHERE in all that information.

I have the MSD instructions in a book form, I'll take a look there, too.



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B-maniac

02-04-2007 07:30:29




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to Bob, 02-03-2007 13:13:29  
Yes , but why? Dyno it before and after. Post the results on here. I , and maybe others, would like to see the results.



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ChadS

02-04-2007 10:15:06




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to B-maniac, 02-04-2007 07:30:29  
They dont really give hp,, now torque, it seems to help. Made to fire high cyl pressures, multi pulse signal to the plugs, which means more than one spark when it fires. Big stroker, and high compression big bore engines need them to add speed to the IGN to start an early flame front, making it easier to lite the fire and not knock,, or well so bad,,, as long as he does not burn up the coil, or burn up the whole system from too big of coil, he will have a very good ign,,, But,, a good tuned distributor can do more good in a stock engine if thats what he has,,, add the two,, and he will have a seat of the pants difference,,, probably be able to burn more fuel,, so,, might be able to make some more torque?? Chad

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Kurt Hamel

02-04-2007 15:17:48




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to ChadS, 02-04-2007 10:15:06  
The MSD will actually allow you to light a leaner mixture which might not light at all or would burn incompletely.Trust me you can make more power with a better ignition system.BUT, the secret is as with all modifications , to get the most out of it you need to baseline the engine and make changes one at a time and optimize the change before moving on.I see too many trying to use an MSD as a crutch to cover another problem.Don't try to burn more fuel, get as much power out of the fuel as you can. Kurt Hamel

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AW Puller

02-04-2007 12:20:22




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to ChadS, 02-04-2007 10:15:06  
How can you get more torque but not more horsepower? Im just dying to know!!



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ChadS

02-05-2007 19:53:14




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to AW Puller, 02-04-2007 12:20:22  
It wont help max peak torque. What it can do is smooth out an erratic rpm range, which in fact if its running rough by not firing right in the lower rpm range, you infact gain, what you did not have before, made by an improvement. Which means, low end torque is increased. Which answers your question. it ahs no effect at 540 pto rated rpm hp, you see it in different areas of the rpm range. Magic,,,, now you see it, now ya dont! Chad

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AW Puller

02-06-2007 11:00:59




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to ChadS, 02-05-2007 19:53:14  
That was about as clear as mud. 'bout like a politician throwing out a bunch of words to confuse you so you give up on asking anymore.

Anyway.....

HP=(torque x rpm)/5252 So anytime you increase torque, you are in effect increasing horsepower; contrary to what you said on 2/4/2007.

And on allowing you to burn more fuel, its kinda like Kurt said, you can burn a leaner mixture. "Lean is mean" (until it starts detonating and blows the top off a piston, etc etc.)

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ChadS

02-06-2007 17:38:39




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to AW Puller, 02-06-2007 11:00:59  
Thats what a MSD is designed to help out,, is when you get so much fuel, your stock single pulse ign will no longer fire the mix. So you add more time, and more pulse bands and allows you to burn up the excess fuel. Your not exactly leaning out the mix, your now able to light what your putting into the cyl. When you run an engine lean, even the smallest weather condition can throw off the entire tune of the engine. You are then going to add the excessive heat created from such a hot fire inside the cyl, that your gonna burn it up, one misfire and there goes the ring lands on the pistons, or a head gasket, or worse, block and head breakage. Heat from that alone can drop HP as fast as the temp guage goes up. So yes, lean is meaner than one can think,,,,

On rising torque, and hp,,, I still stick to my guns,,,, Ive seen engines have slow torque curves, and fast torque curves. Im trying to describe the speed in which an engine responds to a load, or reaction time. Some engines, have a lazy but strong torque curve, some have a fast and strong torque curve. Not every engine is exactly the same as fas as the end results of power. You can have two identicaly built engines, and have two different characterisitcs, one is always more aggresive than the other. One engine can be lazy upon building up the torque, but eventually gets there,, then there are engines that are right there upon command,,,,, What im trying to explain is the reaction time it takes for the engine to respond and be at max power/torque. some can take 8 seconds, some it only takes 5 seconds,,,, see where Im going with this???

Ive seen this on the dyno and yes, an PTO tractor dyno, where I have made it respond more aggresive, but in individual hp checks at certain rpms, the HP hasnt changed,, what did change was the time it took to get there. it was more peppy, it had massive low end torque, but the max torque rpm range never changed, Hp readings never changed, but, it responded a heck of alot quicker,,,,, so what does that mean???? I sped up the engines reaction time to get to peak power,, but, the actual peak numbers,, did not change. tell me why that is? went from lazy to quick in responce time,,, but its not any stronger in the peak numbers. Now, the MSD will help if your trying to burn alot of fuel, that the stock ign will not fire,,,, lets say its running slobbery rich,,,, cant lean it out, cant getno richer, so what can one do??? they add a multi pulse ign band to lite the fire early, fire it, and one fire after the inital timed responce, so you have 3 actual plug fires,,, you do get a more complete burn in the cyl,,, which would kinda trick you into thinking its leaner,,, but its not,, your still burning the same amount of fuel,,, you have enabled your ign to lite the fire under those conditions. A lean mix is more xplosive than a rich mix, so you tell me whats harder to lite? Which one would be more correct, a leaned out dangerous mix, or a mix that's cooler, creates lower cyl temps, and no hassles or worries just go out and lug it out till it dies, and not worry about it pinging, preignition,, or detonation. Kinda obvious to me. I wont argue with a math formula,, or a magazine article,,, Sciences of different engine designs, fuels, etc etc can throw everything you learned out the window,,,, I look at the dyno results and what I see, or will see, or have seen first hand. ive yet to have one leave the shop misunderstood. JMHO,, it makes sense to me. Chad

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RealPuller

02-07-2007 06:07:33




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to ChadS, 02-06-2007 17:38:39  
What a bunch of crap. You have no clue to what your saying.



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ChadS

02-07-2007 06:49:22




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to RealPuller, 02-07-2007 06:07:33  
Hey Real,,,, The only crap you smell is comming from your diaper. Change it. I did not work my tail off for 15 + years in the pulling game to be smart mouthed by a smart alec who does not respect someones opinion. Your a real puller??? HAAAA! Prove it, i got a tractor for about any kind of class you want to match me to. Div 1-5,,, pick one, or shut the F up. Now lets see what kind of real puller you are. Your such a pro, come hunt me down,,,, Ive went out and met the challenge years ago, and now,, you need to show us all your handle is worth the type. You want to attack me as a builder, fine,, lets see how you do as a puller. A real puller,,,,Not in your best day. chad

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Real Puller

02-07-2007 08:54:38




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to ChadS, 02-07-2007 06:49:22  
So what you are saying is, if you can out pull me, all the BS you say is true? Because you have been playing with tractors for 15 years, the laws of physics and thermal dynamics done apply to you?

Your lack of education is showing again, and again, and again.



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ChadS

02-07-2007 16:24:47




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to Real Puller, 02-07-2007 08:54:38  
Maybe someone should call "unsolved mysteries" and let them answer why things do what they do. Maybe they can give an answer you can enjoy. Im not exactly sure why you seem to point me out each and everytime,,,, The rudeness is getting old, but so am I,, and so are you, so we are at an impass. My education, my life's work so far, is all based on hands on opportunity. They may teach all the physics, all the math, for a price,, which may be great for people that live close to a large city, that have room to grow and accept people with the best education money can buy. Then, they go back to their home town, and no jobs around for hundreds of miles for what they are qualified to do. Ive seen it happen to many close friends of mine. Go to tech school for 5 years, get into alot of debt to pay off the education thats completly worthless, then, THEN,,,, work for peanuts doing something thats no where close to what they trained for. What good is it? So people like you can tear others down cause you have the knowledge. People like me, we do what we have to do to survive, cause nobody else is gonna help. I took something I love, and slowly making a living, one day at a time,,,, So in answer to your question,,,,, ,,,, NO! Society's "education" does not apply to me!!! I learned what I have learned so far by turning wrenches, and paying attention. I have a thirst for knowledge, I have a passion for the sport, just like any other red blooded american. If what you know is so gooood,, how bout educating us all???? All I can say is,, what I build, I stand by it, I built it by hand,,, and if it beats somebody famous,, so what! Must mean, Im doing something right. Do I have what it takes to be competitive?? You bet! We all do! But I will say this,,,,, If we ever met and faced off in a pull, you bet your tractor, that I will do everything I can think of to be the best I can be with what I have to offer. If I drive by you, OH WELL!!! guess my education was better on that day. Where would that leave you? ChadS

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It's magic!

02-05-2007 12:41:09




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to AW Puller, 02-04-2007 12:20:22  
To get more torque but not HP, you have to use Chads magic calculator! He has one like Denny that throws out whatever number he thinks you want to see.



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TravisM

02-04-2007 07:51:54




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 Re: msd ignition in reply to B-maniac, 02-04-2007 07:30:29  
I put one on my case 900, it seems to help on fouling plugs and plug life. Thats why I put it on anyways



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