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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

RPM Safety Facts??

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mshultz

12-06-2006 07:50:51




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Anyone into physics enough that can provide some cold hard facts about the effect that increased RPMs have on the centifical force excerted on the flywheel? We have a rules meeting in a week and I want to propose some required safety equipment on higher RPM engines, but I know I will meet resistance. The more factual info I have the better.

Do you think that the HP of an engine has any effect on how badly a flywheel could fly apart? One of the arguments is that we're mainly talking 40-70 HP Farmall C's, H's, and M's, and that you need to have higher HP numbers to worry about flywheel explosions. I don't buy that theory, just looking for others.

Also - if any of you know of sites that have pictures of flywheel explosions or can send me pictures of the aftermath of one in an antique (or other I guess) tractor please let me know and I will open my e-mail.

RPM Limits are not really an option - I know that will not fly with our committee, but maybe some required safety equipment would have a chance.

Thanks for any help.

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buickanddeere

12-09-2006 17:41:44




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 Re: RPM Safety Facts?? in reply to mshultz, 12-06-2006 07:50:51  
Going from 1500rpm to 2121rpm will double the centrifical force on rotating parts.



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ToddF

12-08-2006 09:00:11




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 Re: RPM Safety Facts?? in reply to mshultz, 12-06-2006 07:50:51  
What are tie bars and how/where are they installed? Are they outside of a scatter shield? I am not familiar with them. Thanks for getting me one step closer to conquering my own ignorance.



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johndear

12-08-2006 07:27:22




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 Re: RPM Safety Facts?? in reply to mshultz, 12-06-2006 07:50:51  
I can't imagine belonging to a club that could care less about such a safety issue. I enjoy pulling but would have to walk away from that club and find somewhere else to go.

As mentioned below centrifugal force is exponential to RPM. Force "squares" everytime RPM goes up. Double the RPM, then 4 times the force. Triple the RPM and 9 times the force. Faster you turn it the force begins to really multiply. Take a piece of cast iron that is 50+ years old and ask it to survive that kind of force? Just crazy! A scatter blanket will not contain a 100 lb flywheel that has exploded! They are only meant to catch the pieces that get past a true scatter shield made of steel or THICK aluminum. I would never dream of turing a stock flywheel more than 20% over and that is probably pushing you luck. If it is cracked then stock RPM isn't even safe!

I too pull a Farmall M with a V8. I can't imagine leaving the Farmall flywheel in there! The V8 has a steel flywheel with a Chevy clutch, crome molly input shaft machined to fit the Chevy, a new input coupling for the transmission machined, and a 60 pitch chain coupling. The whole mess is covered up with 3/16" steel to contain the parts if any of it fails and then the "tunnel" is wrapped with a blanket just in case. If it blew up and hurt me it would be bad. If it blew up and killed someone there to watch it would be the end of the world for me!

Saftey is more for the crowd than the operators. We understand there is a risk. They are just there to watch and have a good time. First time one explodes that will be the end to getting insurance.

Well, off my soap box. Hope you can convince the club of the importance of slowing those things down. Unless they have really spent some money inside the motors just twisting them up isn't doing anything HP wise but making more noise!

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MJF

12-07-2006 15:25:00




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 Re: RPM Safety Facts?? in reply to mshultz, 12-06-2006 07:50:51  
Well Mike I'd say H's and M's are not the biggest worries but them little B's and C's are nasty little tractors. Theres no reason they can't at the least put side shields on. Some of them sound like jets leaving the launch pad. But at the same time an Rpm limit prolly ain't gonna work over there, cause we'll be taching 90% of the tractors and that isn't any fun. but thats just opinion.

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Shaggy

12-08-2006 15:54:22




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 Re: RPM Safety Facts?? in reply to MJF, 12-07-2006 15:25:00  
Waht kind of RPMS are these guys turning the B"s and C"s? I have a B and its turning about 2100 now but it will go a lot more but 2500 is about all I want to turn it and that is not to often. 1800 is good for me.
I know some that are turning less than 2000 that sound about like 3000 because of the fans.
Shaggy



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mshultz

12-08-2006 04:19:12




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 Re: RPM Safety Facts?? in reply to MJF, 12-07-2006 15:25:00  
I heard someone say that those C's sound like a nest of ticked off bumblebees. I'm going to discuss it at the meeting, but I doubt it will get far. I just want the discussion to begin and people to start thinking about it. At the least I'm hoping to see some language in the rules for next year that some of the safety stuff is highly recommended, and work from there next year.

I have a hard time running the tractor safety course the club sponsors, and then potentially having one of those kids hop on a tractor that's running over 3000 rpms and with the impression that it's safe to do. Kids assume that if it's not in the rules it must be safe and an okay thing to do - I don't think we're sending them the right message with that.

Tech wise our pull is so easy to run that I know why there is resistance, and I understand that. All we really need to do now is check tire sizes, cut, and drawbar height, and we're done teching... if you even call it that. And it's hard to find help to do that much half the time.

With a couple of heads working together hopefully we can start thinking of creative ways to do this safely and not drastically increase the amount of teching that it takes to run the pull.

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B-maniac

12-06-2006 17:33:58




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 Re: RPM Safety Facts?? in reply to mshultz, 12-06-2006 07:50:51  
Why aren't rpm limits an option?? Do you reallize the added expense that the alternative is going to bring? We think insurance is high now , wait until one accident happens! 20% over factory governed rpm,and that's it! Keeps the whole hobby affordable AND safe! Let the hot rods pull in the hot rod classes that require all the extra safety shields and blankets (and insurance) As a promoter , you have to be a little more bussiness smart than the competitors. It's your *ss on the line , not theirs. Quit letting them tell you how to run the show! It CAN be FUN , AND SAFE!

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dboll

12-06-2006 10:07:56




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 Re: RPM Safety Facts?? in reply to mshultz, 12-06-2006 07:50:51  
if you double the rpm's the centrifical force on trying to tear the flywheel/pressure plate apart quadruples. I saw the end results of a clutch/flywheel explosion last year, it cut the tractor in half and sent pieces for hundreds of feet. If high rpm's are alowed require steel flywheels, scatter blankets and side shields. All alot cheaper than a lawsuit! I don't see 30% over as a problem but higher than that it is imminent that one will grenade and somebody will get killed. Terrible way to lose your child or friend over a little trophy or payback!

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Jerry Cent. Mi.

12-06-2006 13:06:51




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 Re: RPM Safety Facts?? in reply to dboll, 12-06-2006 10:07:56  
A lot of the Farmall guys gut the bottom of the center of the tractor to lose weight. This probably wouldn't help if one explodes. I think that we need to police our selves before the law does it for us.



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truckntractorman

12-06-2006 18:01:16




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 Re: RPM Safety Facts?? in reply to Jerry Cent. Mi., 12-06-2006 13:06:51  
Just to add to your info fact or not we were involved in a club that rules were not inforced properly and things got out of hand, a few years back we would have 250+ hooks a night and all were having fun, then a few started to cheat then a few more. this means you have to beat them with the rule book, start adding classes, stock, open etc. then we got into V-8s witch i now have one, but we also have rev limmiters and SFI bell housings on all, after two tractors at two different events split into and almost killed some people, both farmall M's with the farmall flywheel bolted to BBC cranks could not take the rmps and broke the end of the cranks off and broke clear throug the farmall bell and flew into the croud. WOW what an eye opener. bottem line you cant put a price tag on safty or a human life so enforce the rpm rules.

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gfs

12-07-2006 05:45:18




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 Re: RPM Safety Facts?? in reply to truckntractorman, 12-06-2006 18:01:16  
the flywheel and scatter blanket are just part of the equation, tie bars are just as important. The accident in ky where the man was killed with a hot farm tractor was a direct result of not having the tie bars. Flywheel exploded and the tractor separated allowing pieces to come out around the blanket. Anything over 3000 rpm's should be required to have a steel or ductile or aluminum flywheel and clutch plus the blanket.

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mike's600

12-07-2006 16:17:23




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 Re: RPM Safety Facts?? in reply to gfs, 12-07-2006 05:45:18  
When do tie bars need to be used, what do we look for on a tractor. Curious from a tech inspection.
Thanks



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gfs

12-07-2006 19:54:04




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 Re: RPM Safety Facts?? in reply to mike's600, 12-07-2006 16:17:23  
My thoughts anything with open rpm and 12mph or over. Look at the Midnight Mistress page in the photos of the 88 oliver. I know it has the big tires but in the early 70's none of the superstocks made much more power than division 5 or open outlaw is today. As for teching, strong enough to keep the tractor from rolling apart if the bolts that connect the tractor are not there.



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