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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

cylinder presure

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Author 
es

06-21-2006 17:03:26




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what kind of presure is good for a pulling motor and what is best way to tell if your carb is to small thanks




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Hitt Motorsports

06-22-2006 11:35:56




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 Re: cylinder presure in reply to es, 06-21-2006 17:03:26  
I believe dynamic cranking compression is the topic of discussion here, which is different than static compression ratio. Both are related, but cam timing (specifically intake valve closing ABDC) is a very important component. For example, a 9:1 ratio with an early IVC may give the same cranking compression as a 12:1 ratio with a later IVC. An easy test to do is to open up the valve lash, which shortens the valve event durations by closing the intake valve sooner----the cranking compression should go up.

So what does cranking compression tell you? Two things mainly----1) it gives you an idea on the minimum octane to prevent knock, and 2) helps you find any dead or uneven compression cylinders.

Compression ratio is a two-edged sword, meaning that a super high compression ratio is not a guarantee of big power if the rest of the engine isn't matched up with it. Take a look at NASCAR restrictor plate engines---these guys are nearly pulling full manifold vacuum at WOT, so they run very high comp ratios to make up for the poor cylinder filling. On a normal track, they run less ratio since the restriction is gone, and the cylinder filling is optimized.

So if you have poor flowing heads, an early IVC, and a small carb on your tractor, your cylinder filling will not be optimal, so a higher comp ratio and higher octane fuel to give yourself some knock margin at low piston speeds is a good recipe. However, a set of good flowing heads/manifold/carb will deliver more HP/torque than any increase in compression. Enjoy.

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Marty in Mich

06-23-2006 14:55:59




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 Re: cylinder presure in reply to Hitt Motorsports, 06-22-2006 11:35:56  
Mr. Motorsports- You are dead wrong about your opinion on compression vs good flowing heads.A perfect example is an experiment that I did almost 20 years ago when extrude honing first became popular.I had a AC WC that made 33 hp.I sent my manifold to Ca. to have this new process done to it.While I was at it,I had a buddie of mine port and polish my cylinder head then match it up to the manifold.My carb had already been reworked by a fellow puller who had a monster (at the time)267 ci engine.I figured that if he could get almost 70 hp out of his set-up,my little 240 ci should make at least 55 hp or so.I was sadly mistaken.I could never get over 40 hp out of that combination no matter what I tried.My tractor pulling friend suggested that I simply lengthen the rods half an inch.That took my static compression from 5.5:1 to 10:1.That combination brought my hp reading up to 57 hp.I have done this to a few other tractors with very simular results.Bottom line is this:when all other things are equal,a high compression engine with the proper octane fuel will ALWAYS make more power(hp. and tq.)than a low compression engine,especially in low rpm applications such as tractors.Your statement that good flow will yield more power than any increase in compression is a long ways away from being anywhere near the truth.
Marty

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Hitt Motorsports

06-25-2006 07:48:42




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 Re: cylinder presure in reply to Marty in Mich, 06-23-2006 14:55:59  
Marty,

Let me explain a little further. Like you said, if you take the same engine and just raise compression, there will be gains on the table. One of David Vizard's SB chev books had a nice table showing the percentage gains in HP for each increase in comp ratio. Going from 8:1 to 10:1 is a 4.9% increase---going from 8:1 to 14:1 is a 9.8% increase in power. And this would be at the same RPM. Going from 5.5 to 10 on your AC is a huge jump and no doubt responsible for an increase in your power. Compression is an easy way to gain power on these old engines, especially if your RPM limited. But, if you can spin faster than stock, better flowing heads will be more of an advantage than compression. I've built a few 88 Olivers that do just that. So, if you dynoed your stock AC at 540RPM for example, and then the ported heads at the same RPM, you probably would see little gain (like you did). But if you can spin it faster than that, the power has the potential to be higher than the power from the compression change. It's just plain difficult to build good HP at low RPM's, and high flowing heads may actually give you less torque at those low revs. So increasing compression is a good way to increase performance at the same RPM. Good topic.

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Crutch

06-22-2006 10:15:17




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 Re: cylinder presure in reply to es, 06-21-2006 17:03:26  
More us usually better in a wedge head engine or others with quench area built into the head.

AC WD's which have open combustion chambers my not be suitable for high compessions and possibley the JD 2cyl engines due to detonation problems.

300 is not uncommon for a well built waukesha engine. More compression=more heat=more expansion=more torque.

Google (online engine calc carb size) for a quick guess at carb size cfm requirements. use 70 % vol eff for most tractor engines.

A high vacuume at WOT while pulling indicates a restriction in the induction system.

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champspa

06-22-2006 16:20:19




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 Re: cylinder presure in reply to Crutch, 06-22-2006 10:15:17  
with 281 cu in the vol should be with 70% eff. 91cfm , at 334 cu in the vol should be 108 what kind of oem carbs for a farmall would have this volume at 1600 rpm , Crutch?



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Crutch

06-22-2006 20:00:01




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 Re: cylinder presure in reply to champspa, 06-22-2006 16:20:19  
Can't answer that, other than the carb we use on 600 cu updraft engines are anywhere from 340 to 425 cfm feeding it at 3500 rpms. I think they came off a JD combine. I haven't flowed one to verify it, just taking the carb guys word for it. They are from some place in Ill or Ohio. Seems like they have a 3.125 throat.



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Oh no!

06-22-2006 21:35:42




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 Re: cylinder presure in reply to Crutch, 06-22-2006 20:00:01  
Is this the one and only wannabe Tilley known as Tim Crutchs, only shortened to Crutch? Say it ain't so, we get one of one mastermind only to gain ChadS!



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