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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Pulling Tires

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Smokin Joe

06-28-2005 05:04:31

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Hi Guys,

Im new to antique tractor pulling. Im rumming close to the top of my class, but there is a guy that seems to have an edge on me. We both have more than enough motor, and the same size tires ( 14.9 x 38 ) but his are on a wider rim. Does the wider rim give that much of an advantage, or is it more of a tire pressure game? Got to find a way to beat him. Thanks guys for all the help.

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Lamont

06-28-2005 05:35:59

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to Smokin Joe, 06-28-2005 05:04:31

If the surface of your tires are "rounded" as you look at them from the front or back, you might need the wider rims to flatten that surface out a little bit. The first two things I would check is to make sure your drawbar is as short and as high as the rules allow. Then play with the balance of the tractor. Don't let the front get up in air much at all: just a little bit at the end. Then play with the tire pressure and see what happens. Could be you need the wider rim. How wide are your rims now?

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hitch length

06-29-2005 06:03:23

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to Lamont, 06-28-2005 05:35:59

I pull my tractor with the factory drawbar with a clevis. My tractor rarely lifts off the ground without any front weights and 20 inch drawbar height.I Always thought the longer drawbar would pull down more giving extra traction as long as my fronts didnt lift to lower my hitch. Have i been wrong and the shorter hitch would give me better traction let me know. THANKS

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720Deere

06-29-2005 15:21:01

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to hitch length, 06-29-2005 06:03:23

I agree with the "lever" idea to a certain degree. A shorter hitch is only advantageous if you are needing weight on the front to hold it down. The shorter the hitch, the less weight you need on the front and thus more can be placed on the rear. Up to the point that it causes your front to get light, a longer drawbar/hitch will provide more weight transfer to the drive tires on the tractor while still maintaining the "lift" on the sled. Of course if you run next to no air pressure in your tires then the increased weight transfer will cause the tires to squat more thus lowering the hitch and losing lift on the sled.

I promise you this much, in the 10000 lb class, lift on the front of the sled doesn't mean jack squat when that weight comes all the way up! The sled lift principle only works in lighter classes. When that old sled is nice and heavy and the weight is forward, a small tractor doesn't have enough forward drive to create a lift effect on the sled.

Everybody has their own theories and things that work for them. Pulling theories are more or less opinion, physics is a true science and the principles of that science can't be denied. There is only one way to find what works for you and that's to try it and see.

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Lamont

06-29-2005 20:16:51

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to 720Deere, 06-29-2005 15:21:01

Don't want to get in a big fuss, but lift always matters, regardless of what your tractor weighs or how high that weight gets on the sled. Think about it. The more your tractor is lifting the sled, the lighter that sled pan is dragging on the ground. If you don't think lift matters, just try this. Hook to the same sled with your drawbar on say 18 inches high and make a pull. Turn right around and don't change anything except raise the drawbar to 20 inches high. You'll walk right through the previous tracks and probably add 20 feet or more to your pull.

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Lamont

06-29-2005 06:59:08

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to hitch length, 06-29-2005 06:03:23

Think about your entire tractor as a lever with the rear axle as the fulcrum. If you change the drawbar length, your not changing the amount of "lever" in front of the fulcrum; only the part behind the fulcrum. A shorter drawbar will give the part of the tractor in front of your rear axle more leverage to pull up on the sled thus lowering the amount of drag of the sled as your fulcrum, (rear tires and axle), tries to move forward. Set your drawbar to the shortest length the rules allow and try it. You'll be surprised how much better it works.

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720Deere

06-29-2005 18:43:49

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to Lamont, 06-29-2005 06:59:08

I am not disagreeing with your theory except for the fact that shorter is not always better. If you can run the drawbar longer (we're talking a few inches, not feet) and still keep the front wheels firmly planted on the ground, you will still have as much lift and mechanical advantage on the sled while at the same time providing more weight transfer to the drive wheels of the tractor. This will not work in every situation as tractors and track conditions vary.

How can it matter how long the drawbar is if lengthening it does not affect the balance of the tractor? If the drawbar is longer and yet the front wheels are still staying on the ground. If the wheels were lifting your theory would hold water, but if they stay on the ground you're leverage and lift on the sled will not change. The only thing that changes is that the sled is applying more down force on the rear wheels of the tractor.

As far as trying it goes, I have both ways on the same tractor and the longer hitch works better in light classes and short works better in heavy classes. Our rules don't allow suitcase weights so other than frame weights that aren't friendly to change out you need to use the hitch to balance the tractor. In 9500 lb class, I can run the drawbar 3 inches out, but in 10500 to 12500 I need it as close as I can get it. If I leave it short for 9500, I may as well not pull.

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Lamont

06-29-2005 20:22:38

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to 720Deere, 06-29-2005 18:43:49

Lengthening and shortening the drawbar always affects the balance. It may not make the front get in the air or stay on the ground, but it affects the balance. That front end might not be in the air but it's either heavier or lighter on the ground. I know it sure made a big difference when we shortened our drawbar from 23 to 18 inches. It helped in every class, 7750 through 11500.

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ChadS

06-29-2005 10:45:41

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to Lamont, 06-29-2005 06:59:08

What about the angle of the drawbar itself? On my H, the front is down lower, which I belive changes the draft of the "lever" Before, the drawbar was almost level, from where it hooks up underneath the tractor, and to where it rests on the hitch adjusters. since I lowered the front end I am able to lower the drawbar away from the rear end lower, and it gives it a downward angle to the hook point instead of being level. How would that affect the amount of pull it gives when the front end is still up in the air, still goes like lets say 10 inches off the fround, but instead of the lever being in an upwards angle (front) its now level wit hthe front end in the air, hope this makes sence,, trying to try something different to inrease the upwards draft pull at the hook point??? Chad

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Drew

06-29-2005 19:20:31

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to ChadS, 06-29-2005 10:45:41

As long as your drawbar remains stationary, then the angle it is at makes absolutly NO difference. The pivot point is still the rear axle no matter how the drawbar is attached to the tractor. All this is provided the drawbar is rigid, if you are using a floater (read: cheater) hitch, then the rules change.

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ChadS

06-30-2005 07:08:19

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to Drew, 06-29-2005 19:20:31

Its solid in all directions, adjusters below the axle centerline, and not thru the drawbar, it rest on top of a 1 inch allthread on the bottom, and on top it has a 1 inch allthread that comes down and locks it on top of the bottom adjuster. There is a million ways a puller can cheat on a drawbar,, the one I dont like is behind the hook point, they leave it about 1-1/2 thick past the hook point, and does not allow the hook to set in the hitch loosely, instead, it holds the hook up at a high angle, kinda like a wrecker boom is a good way to decribe it. Chad

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Lamont

06-29-2005 15:16:29

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to ChadS, 06-29-2005 10:45:41

Think about an imaginary plumb line going straight down through the center of your rear axle. Physical science says the maximum torque exerted by the front of your tractor will occur when it is exactly perpendicular to that plumb line. If the front goes up high or down low, the actual distance from that plumb line to the front of your tractor gets shorter. (If measured perpendicular to that line) In other words, the front part of the tractor should be exactly parallel to the ground for maximum lift at the hook point. Tire sag or "bagging" and the depth the rear tires are digging into the ground when the tractor is pulling should be taken into account. You wouldn't want the front part of your tractor to be exactly level when sitting still not pulling. The fact that your front is getting 10 inches off the ground is not good. Anytime that front comes up, the hook point goes down. That increases the drag of the sled on the ground. This is regardless of the angle of the drawbar. I would think that according to physics and measurement, the perfect tractor would have a slight angle down in the front, (sitting empty), so that at just the perfect time when the weight of the front end on the ground reaches zero, the tractor "body", (in front of the axle), is parallel to the ground. I don't think the angle of the drawbar, provided that it doesn't attach above the center of the axle, matters in this point.

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ChadS

06-29-2005 15:42:42

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to Lamont, 06-29-2005 15:16:29

No, its not level sitting still, the front end has a slight downward rake to it, I can see what your saying about the plumb line, I gave 10 inches as a factor, lets compare two setups, on the same tractor, first, the front end is at stock ride height, frame rails level with the ground, when the front lifts, the frame rails then become elevated, or in an upwards angle, lets again say 10 inches off the ground, now on set up #2, same tractor, but the front dropped 3 inches lower than stock, so siting still the frame has a downward rake. naturally, the hitch would have to be let down to achive 20 inches, cause when you drop the front height, and dont change the hitch, the hitch gets higher off the ground. Now the same frame, then comes off the ground 10 inches, but it at a lower angle than what the setup with the stock ride height would be. The lower front end has a different angle on the plumb line, and is not as high as the stock ride height, what would create more upwards pull on the hook point of the hitch? the tractor with the lower stance, or the tractor with a higher front stance? Chad

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Lamont

06-29-2005 16:11:01

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to ChadS, 06-29-2005 15:42:42

Since both tractors are coming off the ground the same amount, I would choose setup #2. The reason I would choose setup #2 is because it's at max lift and might not give very much more hitch drop than it already has. Setup #1 is loosing lift potential as soon as it leaves the ground since it started out level. Watch a tractor that sits almost level pull sometime. It will begin "dancing", then slowly raise, then if the pull continues it will begin raising more quickly. The perpendicular distance from the front to that plumb line is getting shorter making for those quicker raises. Then watch a tractor that has a downward stance in the front. If it's front leaves the ground, it will "dance" just a little, then raise to level, then carry it there for a good distance because it has reached its maximum leverage at level. From that point on, it will mimic the behavior of the tractor that started out level, slowly raising, then raising more quickly as the pull continues. It's still better to balance the tractor and keep that front end "dancing" or "tip-toeing" than to let it get high, but given your two setups, I choose #2.

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ChadS

06-29-2005 18:11:03

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to Lamont, 06-29-2005 16:11:01

I have 2 H,s one setup #1, and one setup #2, #2 always will drive past #1 everytime. #1 does do the dance, raise up n spin out, #2 front picks up, shoots forward, and takes off, front end goes back down and shoots like a rocket. Have always ran less weight up front on the #2 set up, its like it breaks over center on #1 and spins it out too early. Thanks for the info,, getting the HP to the ground can be difficult, seems like you have seen this before! Chad

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Lamont

06-29-2005 19:58:33

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to ChadS, 06-29-2005 18:11:03

I don't want to get into a big dispute as with the top cut tires post, but I used to not think a short drawbar was an advantage as long as the front stayed down. My background in physics kept telling me it should make a difference, but I just couldn't justify it until I tried it. We were running 7750 to 11500, drawbar was 20 inches high and about 23 inches from axle center. The front end was never a problem to keep down. We finally decided to shorten the drawbar from 23 to 18 inches nad immediately picked up longer pulls in every class without fail. It was unbelievable. Try a few different drawbar lengths and experiment with it. You'll see.

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ChadS

06-30-2005 07:54:44

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to Lamont, 06-29-2005 19:58:33

Lamont, all I can say is that you have done your homework, some times us younger fellas need the education! I used to think it was all HP, cause that was the widlely common belief. In the last few years, Ive been looking at my pullers in a more scientific outlook. Someone once said,that they were surprized at how much I dont know about pulling,, well At the time I can say that was true, and it got me thinking,,,, since then, distacnes have gotten way out there better and better. All I can say,, is,, I love science! Thanks again sir! Good luck! ChadS

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Lamont

06-30-2005 14:08:53

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to ChadS, 06-30-2005 07:54:44

My dad taught me that HP wasn't all there is to it. He started pulling in 1978 with an 830 Case, then changed to an 1175. Over the following 7 or eight years, he pulled it in classes ranging from 12000 lb. singles and duals up through 21000 lb. consistently cleaning the clocks of tractors like other 1175s, 1370, 1570, White 2-180s, IH 1086 & 1486, JD 44, 46, and 4840. That's tough pullin'. No, he didn't win everytime, but it is almost unbelievable that he only got 3rd ONCE. The rest were 1st and 2nd. Granted, we didn't travel all over the place; only 3 different local tracks. He had plenty of HP, trust me, but his way of winning was strategy. He WATCHED everything before he started pulling. Tire tread, tire pressure, hitches, weights (or balance), type of track: he knew it all mattered. You already know this. You can't just show up with a tractor and win consistently. You've got to put some effort into finding that way to win. If you wonder if something will work, ask a puller with experience, then go ahead and try it if his explanation of why or why not doesn't make sense. Heck, try it anyway. There are so many variables that can change, you might stumble upon a good idea. I sure like putting the science to it though.

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ChadS

07-01-2005 07:29:37

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Re: Pulling Tires in reply to Lamont, 06-30-2005 14:08:53

Dad started pulling in 1967, deadweight pulling with a JD 3020D. He took a long break,, till I turned 10 or 11,, I begged him to take our tractor to a local pull, and its been on ever since. Dad is back pulling deadweight again,,,, once again he has a John Deere, but a 730 this time, run it between 9200 up to 12,500. He has been doing quite well! Im more of a weight transfer style puller, he is old fashioned, I get so damn bored at the dead weights, I like the pulling style, but gotta be there from dawn to dawn to wait your turn!!!! the amount of weight these tractors can pull from a dead stop is incredible, the last pull he went to, he pulled 9200# tractor, and pulled 57,000# sled, and walked away with it! They ran out of weight to add to the sled! Ever see a 9000+# tractor pull 500%??? Chad

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