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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

M carb problems

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JonM

06-20-2005 08:07:28




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I've had my M running for a couple weeks and have a little problem with my carb, its a 281 with 180 psi comp, reground cam with more lift, elec ignition, mild porting, I can have this thing running at low rpms and it is very smooth, but going over idle it will smoke and run rough, at high rpms it is smooth again, the nozzle and jet have been opened up as ChadS has reported about, This thing will rev quick from low idle to hit the higher rpms, I have used two different carbs and parts and the problem still exists, both are clean with no passages plugged, I've tried a 15/16 venturi and a 1 inch both, while doing some tuning i backed out the idle air screw all the way, it wanted to kill off, so when i put it close to the hole it started to run smooth, it seems to like the extra air in the idle circuit, i hope this makes sense, by creating this vacuum leak my plugs went from pitch black to brown/gray, just wondering if anyone has any thoughts?

thanks

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ChadS

06-20-2005 08:28:56




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 Re: M carb problems in reply to JonM, 06-20-2005 08:07:28  
Stop, you are chasing it around. Have you broke this engine in yet? I mean actually worked it on the dyno, warmed it up to operating temp, then shut it down, went through and rechecked all of your bolt torques on the head, and the manifold? New engines, or I assume its new since you said it was running for a few weeks,,, The factors that are changed during this time of the break in stage of a tractor engine, make, or break on how well it will run in the future. Vacuum leaks are famous in M-450 when they are new, or even just new gaskets are installed. You need to double check all of the above mentioned, and put it on a dyno after you done that, Custom cam in it? or just a stock regrind? Carbs are simpler on these engines, when you rejet the carb by what I say, you will get more fuel to the carb, but usually, if you have to do this, you may find out, that you have quite a powerhouse on your hands, Your venturi, if its not a 29 or larger, its going to smoke excessively, especially at 180#'s or more?? ChadS

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JonM

06-20-2005 08:45:55




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 Re: M carb problems in reply to ChadS, 06-20-2005 08:28:56  
Thanks Chad, it is not broke in yet, I can get it up to temp, have retorqued the head, also checked manifold bolts and studs, can't find any vacuum leaks except for the one i created to get it to run better,(I know that is wrong but I had to try something) reset the rockers, I don't have access to a dyno, the cam is mild custom, I told the guy it would be a pulling tractor with minor field use. The carb rejetting works well, my venturi's were #27, I had three of them bored out to 15/16", 1" , and I have a 1 1/16 also, but I didn't know if that one would be to big and take away some of the low end lugging, I have a Vinson manifold, cleaned and ported, Do you think I have so much manifold vacuum, that at part throttle it is pulling hard on the venturi and sucking too much gas, I don't have a tach yet, but at low idle it runs just like a sewing machine, in low gear i can't stop it with the brakes, so i believe most of my settings are working, just flooding at throttle settings in between.
Thanks Jon

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ChadS

06-20-2005 10:16:02




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 Re: M carb problems in reply to JonM, 06-20-2005 08:45:55  
Yep, thats exactly what its doing, too much vacuum. That 27 aint real big, esecially since your running a Vinson, Vinsons seem to have a bit straighter intake vs stock, Drilling venturis,, it works, but you lose some velocity that the original shape makes., try to smooth out the bottom portion to keep the rounded contour. If you got 180#, then the 1-1/16 will get rid of the smoke at half throttle, Ill bet right now, its real picky on the main load adjustment,,, right? 1/4 turn too lean, 1/4 turn can be too rich??? the bigger venturi will help drop the pressure in the intake, and give you a bit more fine tune adjustment on the screw. 2 weight, or 4 weight governor??? Chad

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jonM

06-20-2005 11:06:33




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 Re: M carb problems in reply to ChadS, 06-20-2005 10:16:02  
I just put in the 1 1/16 venturi in it, runs good, drove it about 50 feet with the brakes on, still has good power, I'm in so. Minn, it is humid today, with the big venturi I don't have the sweating at the base of the mainifold, the smaller venturis did, I'm thinking about taking one of the smaller ones out to 1 -1/32", just to kind of split the diff. , they were bored on a lathe so they are smoothe inside, the guy that sold me the lp head was talking about 806 carb and venturi, but I told him i'm still 20 cubes short and about 800 rpms lower,I'm more worried about pulling and having it fall flat on its face in front of everyone, The gov is a 2 weight with a uniball linkage on the top part,was on a parts tractor that way, i have a heavier spring about 1/4" shorter than stock, and stiffer, I've seen you post the dimensions of your spring, this one is close to that, but smaller od with .105 wire thickness, your right about the load screw being sensitive, but I figured I went a little too big with the drill, I need to find a way to pull a load or use the pto to work it a little

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ChadS

06-21-2005 06:33:12




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 Re: M carb problems in reply to jonM, 06-20-2005 11:06:33  
I dont think it going to fall, but since you have ran it richer lately, you mite put a set of plugs in, just incase it loses one. wanna see if its running good? you seem like you know whats going on, so here is one to try,, it's a test when there is no dyno, it does simulate a load on the engine, dont go overboard, but it works, tractor sits still. Loosen the distributor, start engine, set throttle a little above idle, or if you have a tach, bout 1000 rpms, turn the distributor, clockwise, (as if you were sitting on the tractor, looking at the distributor, the rpms will drop, and the engine will run as if it is under a load, Now, dont go over turning the timing, you can kill the engine by going to far, It dont take much, but you will see what Im talking about when you hear the M lug down. thats a practice, just to see what happens,,, if you have a plug bad, or carb trouble, it will tell you pretty quick. You can do the same at full throttle, I can tell you, if you set the timing by ear, at full throttle, when you set it to where it sounds the best, at an idle, the engine will sound slightly labored, kinda like a 350 chevy with an auto tranny in gear sitting still, Mufflers are the best tool to use on these engines, unless you have a long straight pipe, mufllers, you can hear the tone of the engine little clearer than a loud straight pipe. I would say, if you did get it on the dyno, peak the HP on it, it would be 65-70 hp pretty easy, would probably be in the low 60's till you get the bugs worked out and everything set. How big of cam change did you go? Chad

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JonM

06-21-2005 13:03:33




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 Re: M carb problems in reply to ChadS, 06-21-2005 06:33:12  
Chad-- after thinking about it some more, I think I have the holes in the nozzle a little too big, I've worked on alot of v8s with holleys and the acc pump will always give you the quick throttle response, This engine is quick but I don't really need that, so I'm going to start over again,with a different nozzle, but still use the bowl with the big jet, The timing test, your saying to advance it, until it starts to blubber a little and leave it there, is that to make the gov. come in under a load??, this thing does like timing and I have different springs in the dist, I don't want it to detonate, using farm gas with a litle super 104 added to it..the cam card says @.050 duration at 200 degrees, and 240 at lifter ,with .330 cam lift, should be around .560 lift at the valve.I asked for a super M-450 design with better flow, I think it will work well, I used an indicator on each lifter and they are very close to each other. I had to remove the little umbrella valve seals because they wanted to bottom out on the guide ,with the small spring clip on the valve stem, lobe separation is 107 deg, I guess i understand the specs for a v8 better than a low rpm torquer the lobe sep, kind of confuses me,
Thanks Jon

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ChadS

06-21-2005 14:57:03




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 Re: M carb problems in reply to JonM, 06-21-2005 13:03:33  
I think the SM-450 cam grind is about as good as it can get for engines under 330 cubes. Much over that, and you may run into efficency problems, you got 180 psi, which is good, and it may be borderline to take advantage of the cam grind. I bet the cam would really help if the compression was over 200, and a bit more cubic inch. Yeah, you can go overboard on the nozzle, if you did go kinda big on the jets, you can back it off by the metering stem, just use a size or 2 smaller than the jet, that should get you a nice, tunable carburator. Yeah, you kinda do need the quick responce, governors that are ultra sensitive to rpm changes, and if the responce time is a bit slow as far as the fuel side, it can get lean in certain rpm ranges. It could cause heat trouble, not so much to say damage, but could run a little warmer than it should, a nice coca brown plug color is what your looking for. Thats after is was under a load, not no load. The timing trick, that can test ignitions, carb settings, not so much on the governor cause the timing is creating the speed change, and the governor does not usually detect the rpm change to respond while performing this kind of test. What you want to do, is to make it lug a little, it will, if it runs good, no misfires, or the exhaust is pretty clean. not gassy, set it back to where you origianlly had it, or to where it sounds the best, by ear, at high rpm, it will labor a tad at an idle like a car idling in gear with an auto tranny. Chad

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JonM

06-21-2005 15:36:09




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 Re: M carb problems in reply to ChadS, 06-21-2005 14:57:03  
Its getting alotbetter, no vacuum leak, used the 1-1/16 venturi, should almost be a 33 or 34 right?its humid again today and it sweats at the base, I had to use the bowl with the smaller drilled jet, used my last nozzle which had a larger hole on the stem, and the 1st and 3rd holes were a bit bigger, looks like IH built it that way, with these parts and the metering screw out a couple turns, it runs good, idle air screw responds now too, good idle, and good throttle response,has a puff of smoke but it clears up right away, advanced the timing a little, until it has the slight uneven sound out of the muffler, now I'm using 2nd gear and the brakes can't hold, I have a tach on order from summit, but for now their is a small digital lawnmower one that reads pulses off the plug wire, it does not respond real quick but it is showing me that when i hit the brakes, i lose about 150 to 200 rpm, almost right after it comes back to 1570 and holds there, the timing light shows me the tdc mark on the balancer is at the 12:00 oclock mark at idle. Chad just wanted to say thanks, it helps to talk it out,got to build front weight bracket, wheelie bars, (do you have any pics, email is open) and then paint, I want it to look and run good, I had every bolt out of this one, so I am glad after all that time it is starting to run decent.
JonM

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ChadS

06-21-2005 16:20:30




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 Re: M carb problems in reply to JonM, 06-21-2005 15:36:09  
Best ventrui is the 35. Your close. Keep an eye out for changes as you run it more, as it breaks in, things change, and usually youll see the plugs foul, or its hard to start. As the rings break in more, there is fine metalic dust that loves to foul plugs on new engines, and that usually happens on the first pass of the nite. So, keep plugs handy. Been there, misfired, lesson learned. Ive got a H that Ive had each and every bolt out of it, twice, Ive pulled it in modified classes for, 8 years, it is an awesome H, and Im just now putting it back together for another 8 years of battle with oliver 77's Wd's, to let em know that IH is on the track. Engine, transmission, rear end, front to back, almost done. My engine is just bout done, I actually looked at it today, onthe stand, thinking,, soon, very soon. Our biggest pull of the year is on July 28th, at Goshen Indiana, its huge, and that is where I am bringing back my toy. Resurected once more, built to pull, pull to win. Oh yes, I have alot of pictures of "Something Wilder" 8 years of making this thing run, put er up front, keep it there, and then try to do it all over again, is going to be tough, this tractor, taught me, as much as I could ever build into it. So, yes, it is one heck of a feeling, to hear them run, they way they should. Good luck, change it, only if the air changes, may not be so humid come time to pull. ChadS

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