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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel?

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Tennessee Pulle

02-21-2005 05:53:05




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What are you paying for different brands of racing fuels?
Sunoco has gone sky high. 110 Octane $5.09 per gal. 112 $5.85 and 116 $7.69 per gal.




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buickanddeere

02-21-2005 19:23:50




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to Tennessee Puller, 02-21-2005 05:53:05  
Automotive race gas has a very fast flame speed compared to aviation fuel of the same octane. High rpms and piston speed like an 8000rpm small block vs. a big slow running engine like an aircraft radial. If your naturally aspirated gasser detonates on 100LL which has a pump octane of 96. Your compression is too high and beyond the point of making any appreciable additional power.



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the preacher

02-21-2005 17:05:17




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to Tennessee Puller, 02-21-2005 05:53:05  
try avgas. its 100 octane, low lead, so it will work good with older cylinder heads that haven't been updated. its also around 3.00 a gallon, so it's a bit easier on the wallet.its readily availible at any municipal airport, and they will pump it into cans for you.if you want to try alcohol, try going to your local ag tire shop. most shops now fill tires with methanol instead of calcium chloride.its alcohol that has had methane gas boiled into it. it should be relatively cheap. :)

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Hot460

02-21-2005 06:01:00




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to Tennessee Puller, 02-21-2005 05:53:05  
I pay $1.92 for the 89 octane I run in my 460....



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ChadS

02-21-2005 09:03:55




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to Hot460, 02-21-2005 06:01:00  
1.75 for Ethanol, and 1.85 for 94 octane, I mix them, makes a nice 100-110 octane and makes some real power! I purcahse my fuel from Farm Coop's. Not the big name racing fuel companies where you pay for the name instead of the results you really need. Racing fuel, does not work well in engines lower than 3000 rpm! it has a very fast flash point it gets in the cyl, quickly explodes, and poof, it's done! Ethanol,,,it burns much slower, and cooler, you have all the time in the world to create a good explosion in the chambers! I know in most cases, racing fuel messes up the engine in an Antique puller that runs less than 3000. Racing fuel, is designed to burn at high rpm, not low rpm. Its overkill if you ask me! Look around for different options for fuels, you will save a bunch of $$, and maybe,, gain some better running charateristics in your pulling engine. Just cause it smells good out the pipe, dont mean its the right fuel for your setup. JMHO, ChadS

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ebbsspeed

02-21-2005 13:17:08




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to ChadS, 02-21-2005 09:03:55  
Chad, the higher octane fuels burn slower, or in a more controlled fashion, than do the low octane fuels. That's why a slightly higher octane rating can sometimes eliminate detonation, which is caused by too quick a burning mixture.

http://www.handymanusa.com/articles/octane.html



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TREE TOPPER

02-21-2005 11:15:56




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to ChadS, 02-21-2005 09:03:55  
We don't run race fuel 'cause it smells good out the pipe. We run it because the engine requires it to keep from detonating. Besides the race fuel is leaded and provides some lubricant to the upper cyl and valves. I'm no chemist, but I understand alcohol is one of the more corrosive fuels you can run in an engine. BTW how do you measure 110 octane off this "blend" of your's



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buickanddeere

02-21-2005 22:30:01




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to TREE TOPPER, 02-21-2005 11:15:56  
Lead may cushion the valves and limit spot welding along with the resulting metal errosion. A factor in engines with low quality metal in the valve and seat. However lead causes extra wear in every other part of the engine. Cylinder wear is increased. Of course if the engine is subjected to detonation. The engine will not last very long no matter what it's fueled with.



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ChadS

02-21-2005 13:34:28




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to TREE TOPPER, 02-21-2005 11:15:56  
First off, it is E85 that I mix with 94 octane. Funny thing about octane ratings is that it can work both ways, and still detonate, and preignite in certain engines. Ethanol is a very oily fuel, it does not evaporate like METHANOL. When E85 evaporates, it leaves behind an oliy residue, Methanol, evaporates compltely, and it does leave behind a corrosive residue, almost like an acid. it is like a whitish substance, and yes it will eat parts. E85 on the other hand, does not do this at all, it will leave a residue that is more like oil, than acid. There is a difference in the chemicals used to make ethanol, than Methanol. You have to run an upper cyl lubricant while burning Methanol, it is just too dry of fuel due to the evaporation rate when mixed with air. Methanol, you will use twice as much, due to the evaporation factors, it does atomize at 4-5 times the rate that gas does, therefore, the molecules will be alot smaller VS a gasoline based fuel. Ethanol, when mixed 50-50 with 94 octane, can and will fire an engine perfectly at 300 psi, no detonation, or preignition. I know it can, I use it all the time with 300 psi engines! As far as the octane ratings are concerned,,, ethanol, is a good substitute for octane boosters because it has a lower flash point to create ignition. Which is the same thing that octane does, it makes the fuel harder to ignite under more pressure. There is a differnce between Methanol, and ethanol. Methanol is the fuel that will do damage if not set up properly, it will lean out, and burn up parts. That is the leading misconception of what the terms of alcohol fuels. There is more than one type of it, and the factors created by each individual fuel is different, one is oily, one is not. Which one will do damage? I figured, when I mix 50-50, every gallon of ethanol mixed with 2 gallons of 94, will increase octane 4-5 points depending on how good the 94 fuel is. From what I read on the pumps at the gas stations in this area, 10% added to 87, makes 89 octane. The 87 fuel dont change the octane, the ethanol does. Hope this makes sence, I have it wrote down somewhere as to what the exact octane was when mixed at different levels. This is just off from what I remember from the formula we came up with without looking. Ill make you a bet though,,, Ill put my fuel up against any fuel out there, and it will make more power, run better, than any 7 dollar a gallon race gas! any takers? Not trying to be cocky here, please dont think that,, Ive had alot of tractors in here with a wide spread of fuel selections, and nothing, and I mean nothing equaled the cost, and the HP output than E85 and 94. JMHO. ChadS

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buickanddeere

02-21-2005 22:34:19




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to ChadS, 02-21-2005 13:34:28  
I pretty much agree. Vapour point is the temperature at which flamable vapour are available to burn. Tremdous varity in vapour point depending on if it's aviation fuel, the state you are located in, time of year, manufacture and elevation. In cold weather any alcohol has to have some gasoline mixed with it or the engine will be a swine to start.



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Drew

02-21-2005 15:11:46




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 Just one small problem..... in reply to ChadS, 02-21-2005 13:34:28  
Just about every set of rules I have seen say "no alcohol" Have you checked your mixture to see what specific gravity it is?



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TREE TOPPER

02-21-2005 13:49:54




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to ChadS, 02-21-2005 13:34:28  
Wonder why Nascar is using sunoco instead of "E85"?



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stroker 88

02-21-2005 18:50:30




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to TREE TOPPER, 02-21-2005 13:49:54  
because they are the proud sponser. and they give it to them free.



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superih

02-21-2005 10:40:21




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to ChadS, 02-21-2005 09:03:55  
When you say ethanol is it purchased under the name of E-85? Or do you just ask for ethanol?



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ChadS

02-21-2005 13:35:51




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to superih, 02-21-2005 10:40:21  
Where Im located, it is called gasohol. E85 is what it really is. ChadS



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Mike S 806/H

02-21-2005 21:36:04




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to ChadS, 02-21-2005 13:35:51  
what octain is the E85 alone?



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Ol Gray A

02-21-2005 10:44:14




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to superih, 02-21-2005 10:40:21  
What amounts do you mix?



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ChadS

02-21-2005 13:48:28




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to Ol Gray A, 02-21-2005 10:44:14  
Depends on your compression ratio, or cyl pressure. JD 2 lungers dont really like it that much at 100 psi. it is too hard to ignite if overmixed, it takes less in the JD, than it would in the farmall,AC Olivers, etc etc. Now, if you have a JD, mix 1/2 gallon of E85 to 2 gallons of gas to make it work very well. it smooths out the torque in the JD 2 cyl, alot more steady torque, VS erratic which is what a JD is famous for. JD's are ground pounders, unlike the other models, the torque is massive in them. Farmalls and other models, 100-150 psi of cyl pressure, mix it 1 gallon E85 to 2 gallons of gas. 150-200 psi, 1.25 gallon E85 to 2 gallons of gas. 200-250 1.5 gallons of E85 to 2 gallons of gas, 250-300psi, mix it 50-50. That is my charts to mixing it for best results. it loves compression, and low rpms, much over 3000rpm, and it wont work as well as racing fuels, due to the factors in the engine are different at higher rpms. try to use it in high rpms, it will run richer cause it is denser slower burning, but mix the E85 with the race gas, for over 3000 and it mite work even better. Like I said, my opinion of racing fuel is that is designed to burn up faster due to the lesser time due to the speed of the engines rpm. ChadS

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buickanddeere

02-21-2005 22:45:17




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to ChadS, 02-21-2005 13:48:28  
I'm glad to see that the true working numbers of compression pressure is being used here. Instead of just the mechanical compresison ratio. Valve timing, volumetric effiency and the rpms the engine is operated at matter.These factors vary cylinder pressure from running fine on 87 octane tractor gas. Yet the same mechanical compresison ratio can be made to detonate even when 100LL is used. Octane requirements also vary with intake air temp, air/fuel ratio, port wall temps and combustion chamber wall temps. Also combustion chamber size and shape matter too. A large combustion chamber has less wall area per cu" of displacement v.s a small combustion chamber. With less wall area, less heat is absorbed from the air/fuel mixture during compression. However the bonous less heat absorbed during the combustion stroke. The reason why small diesels have higher compresison ratios than large diesels by the way. An engine with high compresison but a big lump on the piston. May make less power and certainly be more prone to detonation. Than the same engine with a less obstructed flame path from a lower piston dome.

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tom upton

02-21-2005 20:58:21




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 Re: What Are You Paying For Racing Fuel? in reply to ChadS, 02-21-2005 13:48:28  
I have heard that tolulene and xylene are excellent octane boosters?(along with basicaly a lubricant as they where not designed to burn in a engine) Big plus to either of these is they are available at most petrolium outlets in 45 gal drums for about twice the price of regular gas(we use tolulene at work for paint thinner and it is about $1.50/litre)Another plus is I think it is legal to run where alcohol based is not (at least not for vintage pulls around here) Straight tolulene is around 114 octane when mixed @30 percent with premium 92 octane gas it will give you about 98 octane . Xylene straight is 117 octane when mixed 30 percent with the 92 it gives you 99 or so. I assume you need to add a certain amount of dextron 2 or something for cylinder lubricant in a prescribed amount but do not know how much for sure. I do not know this info from experience it is just what I have been told . It was also recomended that you dont use at any greater amount than 30 percent for either tolulene or xylene. Some one out there knows more about useing the above for higher compression tractor engines, and hopefully will reply as I am a little leery of giveing it a try until I have heard from someone who has actualy used it successfully.By the way I agree that running high end racing fuel in low rpm engine is a waste of money.Another thing that is just a big gimmick and a waste of money is off the shelf octane boosters most of them claim to raise octane level by x amount of points what they fail to make clear is that is 1/10 th of what you think . e.g.92 plus 3 points =92.3 This may sound silly to some but I bet there is a lot of guys out there that actualy beleive it means will raise to 95 !!

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