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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

NATPA and a Power Block

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JD B Puller

09-23-2004 11:42:39




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I have a power block on a late styled John Deere B. Will I be able to pull in 4500# Div II?




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Brian in NE

09-23-2004 18:55:01




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to JD B Puller, 09-23-2004 11:42:39  
Although I personally know all four of the
gentlemen mentioned, and can't vouch for all of
the pulls they have pulled at, I can say that they
all know the parts books very well for each of
they're individual tractors. They have tried different things on the tractors and if it didn't
work something else was tried. Parts were looked at and approved by others. Also remember, it does't say a stinking thing
about stroking the motor. Read between the lines!

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Brian in NE

09-23-2004 18:43:56




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to JD B Puller, 09-23-2004 11:42:39  
Although I personally know all four of the
gentlemen mentioned, and can't vouch for all of
the pulls they have pulled at, I can say that they
all know the parts books very well for each of
they're individual tractors. They have tried different things on the tractors and if it didn't
work something else was tried. Parts were looked at and approved by others. Also remember, it does't say a stinking thing
about stroking the motor. Read between the lines!

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Heavy Puller

09-23-2004 12:30:06




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to JD B Puller, 09-23-2004 11:42:39  
This is the Letter that was sent to me i would say no to your question.SEEYA

After the summer pull in Creston, Ia. I feel it would be
a good idea to let the directors know what is acceptable and what is not
approved, as there were some discrepancies over interpretation on rules
in Division II. Division II rules were set up in NATPA's infancy by
Director Frank Lasetto, Glen Bowers, Ron McCormick, and Bob Bryan.
Division II rules were set up to provoke a class for original farm
tractors, with little more than M & W oversized bore kits, pressed
steel was allowed on bolted on hub mounted axles to lighten some
tractors to be competitive with others in their class. This class was
created so there could be an inexpensive way to pull antique tractors.
The rules were put in place and worded to keep original tractors in
Division II and keep performance engines and larger external components
out. Any part or accessories that externally enhance performance was to
be disallowed. Division II class is by far the most difficult class to
tech, and is kept firm to the rules, because Division III tractors are
constantly trying to work into Division II. Division II rules are
comprehensive and not compromising. Simply put, if it is not in the
parts book for that tractor, it can't be used. As of late,
discrepancies have arisen over replacement parts and some have
interpreted that with modification larger manifolds and carburetors can
be run in Division II. Rules for Division II clearly state in Rule #9
Appearance - tractors MUST maintain ORIGINAL STOCK appearance. No extra
accessories allowed - Read #9. A larger carburetor, or manifold with a
lager flange or that moves carburetor and linkages from its original
position is not original stock appearing. This is a short, but not complete, list of performance items NOT
ALLOWED in Division II just for your information. Hiesler heads, manifolds, and TSC power blocks on JD's. Larger carburetors (example: Farmall "M" carbs on "H"s). JD G carbs on A JD's. IH 340 heads. 135/153 cu. in. manifold & carbs on IF "C"s. Gm M-5, 670 blocks on U & 5 star Molines. Square port heads on Molines. AC WD 45 / D17 engines or heads on AC WD and WC. 350, 300 Super H engines in IH "H" - W 4's. 450,400 Super M engines in IH "M" - W6's. 450 engines in Super "M"s. 350 engines in 300's. 350 and 300 engines in Super "H"s. AC engines or any component thereof, to include heads,
manifold, and carburetors, in Cockshut Co-op or Farmcrest
tractors. Denny's tachometers or new aluminum distributors. Electric fans, water pumps, fuel pumps , and speed sensing
devices. Home made rear end covers or deck/transmission plates. Home made front end or pedestals. Flanged hubs. Aluminum except weight brackets & wheelie bars. Chrome wheels, nuts, sheet metal, coils, and steering
wheels. Any replacement part from a replacement parts book MUST be OEM
replacement only to comply with rules #7 & 9. The Tech Director and his crew work long and hard to keep
Division I and II rules in enforcement. This segment of NATPA must
segment of NATPA must be kept strictly to the mark to keep membership
pulling by the same rules from East to West, to be lax in Division I &
II would be to undermine the objective of NATPA (a place for everyone to
pull). We have 3 classes where performance parts and engines can be
externally enhanced. Please help the tech committee keep the classes
in perspective. If any questions arise on any part to be used in Division II
call Rich Wenzig.

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New NATPA is alot better

09-24-2004 19:44:45




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to Heavy Puller, 09-23-2004 12:30:06  
The new natpa system for teching tractors is way better than the old days. All the people doing the complaining now are trying to cheat and got caught. As for division jumping from div 3 to div 2 does not work as most people think. Drawbars, tire sizes, cut tires, and stock appearance make a big difference. The rules for div 2 are no doubt the hardest to enforce but Rich Wenzig and Bob Bryan have done a good job the last three years.

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PULLING FAN

09-23-2004 17:08:39




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to Heavy Puller, 09-23-2004 12:30:06  
AND GUESS WHO DID THE MOST CHEATING, THATS RIGHT,
BOWERS,MC CORMICK,BRYAN.



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Past NATPA Puller

09-23-2004 13:42:44




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to Heavy Puller, 09-23-2004 12:30:06  
If NATPA really wants to keep Division Three tractors out of Division Two, the best thing they could do to support this is keep Division Four tractor out of Division Three! To accomplish this beside enforcing there own rules is not allow any pulling tractor in the association to pull in more than one Division. Plain and simple. Sure would make things allot simpler and better for everyone, but you know some people just got have it there way, especially the ones running the show!!!

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Eric Stephen/White Wheels

09-24-2004 09:18:07




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to Past NATPA Puller, 09-23-2004 13:42:44  
Gentlemen, I agree with you all 100%. The NATPA and the committee make the rules for everybody to follow. Its obvious that the old "croonies", are avove the rules. just look at who the officers and comittee members are. Then look at the winning results. the lighter classes are A/C's, the middle weight classes are M's and 460's, and the heavier classes are Moline's and Cases. The USAP organization is by far the fairest, by speed limit and engine RPM's. The NATPA is a dying organization, because we pullers are tired of their crap. Their hook fees are insulting, then if you win, you get nothing in return, oh they say its not about winning money. Oh no, they just let it build-up, then the croonies will divide it at the championship pull among themselves, then laugh at us pullers, like we are a bunch of fools. Well to HELL with you NATPA. Go on NATPA, go on and accomodate the crum's, margots, and colorado bears. it build croony club around them and see how long it last.

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ChadS

09-24-2004 09:13:23




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to Past NATPA Puller, 09-23-2004 13:42:44  
That letter said changing the outside appearance of the tractor, to enhance performance was not allowed. I read that, and re read that, and then read it again!! My personal opinion, is that that is what they came up with div 1 for!!!! To keep all the stock parts on the stock pulling tractor Now that statement is a contorversey in itself, "A stock pulling tractor." I dont care what is said,, there is no such thing. It sounds like the rule makers were getting whipped by these "Factory enhanced" engines. So they segragated them. And why??? Is this div 1?? No. it was not, now it is,,,,, and that will continue till the ones getting beat, start winning. Economy class???? Well, not too sure on that, still costs $25 bucks just to hook to the sled,, so where is the economy in that? And if ya win,, you get what,, 15 bucks? LOL!! It just sounds like they wanna nit pick. Soon, they gonna recommend all div 2 tractors to have PTO, so they can dyno the winners. Tell ya what, the winners in the NATPA in the div 1 and 2 class, and I never seen em pull lately, but,, you can bet, that if their tractors were dyno tuned, they are not stock. at least over 10 percent over the factory HP rating! Dont care if they are stock cubes or not. If they rejettd the carb, it should be throwed out, dont care if it has the OEM part number on the carb, head, or what have ya!!! it is not stock, like they claim they want the class to be. Now, they say to provoke a class to allow M&W kits, etc, etc. And yet, they throw out a M&W power block for a JD!!!!! At least that is what one has stated. Keep div 1 rules in div 1, keep div 2 rules in div 2, keep div 3 in div 3, and so on and so on. All the tech commities in the world, cant always find a modified engine, only one way, to do this. Limit on compression. good chart in my opinion, is that in div 1, no cyl pressure over 125 psi. div 2, not over 175. div 3, no more than 225psi, div 4 and 5,, Well, those are more open classes, so over 225 and up would be ok. You want to find enhanced tractors??? stop picking on the factory bolt on parts, and look for big cubed, high compression engines, that dont belong in the division, a real tech committe would know right off the bat if they ran a compression test, if it was stock or not. There needs to be a limit on what can be done to them,,, but any factoy part that bolts on to the engine, should be allowed. in div 2. that is why they call it an economy class! all the factory parts cant be used to enhance performance, outside appearence, well then where do you spend the money, and what do you enhance?? The inside of the engine. Strokers, big bores, and how can we spot a stroker? or a non stock cubic inch engine? ChadS

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BUD BARENIE

09-24-2004 16:52:19




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to ChadS, 09-24-2004 09:13:23  
CHAD:
YOU SELL HI-PERFORMANCE HEAD GASKETS, TO INCREASE BARREL PRESSURE. now we need to check carbs for jetting and also check barrel pressure.
i haven't opened up the discussion board for a week ! division 4 for going to 3, 2 going to 1. THE SPORT BECAME SO EXPENSIVE, THAT NOW IT HAS TO CHANGE TO HAVE FUN AGAIN, OR NOT GET BEAT !
HOW ABOUT PULLING WHAT YOU HAVE, DO YOUR BEST AND ENJOY THE WEEKEND AWAY FROM WORK !
EVERY DRIVER AND TRACTOR HAS LIMITATION'S
MAKE PEOPLE ADHERE TO THE RULES AND CALL IT A DAY !
IF THEIR GOING TO CHEAT THAT BAD,AT TRACTOR PULLING, MIGHT NOT BE A GREAT BUNCH OF PEOPLE TO HANG AROUND WITH !!!
JUST MY OPINION, MIGHT NOT HAVE MUCH WORTH !

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ChadS

09-25-2004 06:59:38




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to BUD BARENIE, 09-24-2004 16:52:19  
Bud, we all know that we aint gonna get throwed out cause the carb is rejetted. I said that, because of the BS, that is already not allowed. What would be one more thing to check, when you have all that to look for already? I agree, run what you brung, and go with it. In my opinion, the sleds will stop the tractors. Modified, or farm stock, the rules on the track, speed limits, tires, hitch specs, is what determines, what division class you run, not what kind of motor hp or factory parts one uses! What I see, is they are trying to run a modified class, with farm stock rules. Would any one consider, pressed steel rims, a custom built hitch, front weight brackets, suitcase weights,etc etc, a change in outside appearence? I would. Modified rules, with farm stock rules. Now let em be specific,, and lets see what they say,,, OK NATPA,, you say factory part numbers for that specific model. What can we do to the inside of the engines? I want some facts, what can we do? Can we stroke them? bore em out? No?? then how do you check for it????? ChadS

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BUD BARENIE

09-26-2004 04:58:30




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to ChadS, 09-25-2004 06:59:38  
HEAVY PULLER :
I REREAD HEAVY PULLER'S LISTING OF DIVISION II RULES. THEIR IS ABSOLUTELY ENOUGH MEAT IN THOSE DEFINITION'S TO KEEP AND BUILD A STRONG DIVISION II CLASS. I WAS AMAZED AT PART'S THAT COULDN'T BE USED IN EARLIER MODEL TRACTORS. NO 450 BLOCK IN AN (M). NO M5 BLOCKS OR G BLOCKS ON A MOLINE.
POSTED HERE WERE MANY GOOD CONVERSATION'S ABOUT TRACTOR'S, THAT IF PULLING WITH WRONG PART'S ON THEM, SHOULD HAVE BEEN DISQUALIFIED, PERIOD !
I'M GOING TO PRINT THAT PART, TO USE IN OUR CLUB. IF CLUB'S ACROSS AMERICA WILL ADHERE TO STRICK RULES, NO-MATTER WHAT CLASS, TRACTOR PULIING WILL ABSOLUTELY EXPLODE. THAT'S MY OPINION !

I HAVE ONE DESIRE FOR TRACTOR PULLING.

ON ANY GIVEN PULL DAY IN AMERICA ! THE POLICE DEPARTMENT WILL HAVE TO BE NOTIFIED, TO DO ONE THING !! DIRECT TRAFFIC OFF THE HIGHWAY OR COUNTY ROAD !!! SO THAT HUNDRED'S OF TRUCK'S WITH TRAILER AND TRACTOR ON-BOARD CAN GET TO THE PULL SIGHT SAFETY. COULD YOU IMAGINE A SEVERAL MILE STREAM OF EQUIPMENT LINED UP TO GET TO AN INTENSE FAIR PULL !!!!
AN ECONOMY CLASS WAS CREATED FOR GUY'S LIKE ME, WHO CAN'T PULL ALOT, AND THAT'S OKAY !!
BUT WHEN YOU ALLOW OTHER PEOPLE TO CHEAT THE MAJOR RULES, IT'S JUST UNFAIR COMPETITION !
WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT CHEATIING, THIS IS ABUSE, AND IT HINDER'S ALL FUTURE GROWTH, AND THE INTIRE GROWTH OF PULLING AS A BIG TIME SPORT !

SORRY FOR THE LONG POST !

BUD BARENIE

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Heavy Puller

09-25-2004 12:05:18




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to ChadS, 09-25-2004 06:59:38  
Chad ,I posted the letter I recieved to answer some of the questions that were posted ,not to give you a pedastal to stand on and preach from .I hope that some of the questions posted were answered I for one need to get to work to meet there rules and compete on an even playing field I hope most people are doing the same I also hope that the tech people hold steadfast to there plan and we can all have fun.I personaly feel my choice of tractor is being held under a microscope but I take it as a challenge not a oppertunity to whine and complain .But to each there own and I bet the whinners dont even hook with NATPA this winter.Ar3e you planning on making any hooks with them this winter ChadS?if not well forget it.

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ChadS

09-25-2004 12:29:01




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to Heavy Puller, 09-25-2004 12:05:18  
It is only my opinion, and preach, well I will stand up and shout. Put your winners on the dyno, spec them out the way a mechanic specs them out, and knows what to look for. Hey, if they wanna do what they say, I think it would be great if they do all that. I dont agree with not allowing bolt on parts like the Power block in the JD, only certain kinds, or not allow a H to have a super H carb. I have seen pulling like this, and it is no fun for those who cant do anything to them, or people making them think that they cant do anything to their pullers to make them pull better. Put them winners on the dyno!! lets see how stock the class really is!!!! NATPA dont like feed back. it is not a personal attack on you Heavy puller!!! Funny, that my bad opinion is not the only one saying it though. Dont belive me, come to Indiana and ask the pullers bout your wonderful club. Not the new pullers, the ones who pulled in the beginning, when all the BS rules showed up half way through the season, and half way though the class!!!!! All because the leader of the class got out pulled, and suddenly the rules change when the unexpected happens. Uh oh!! got out pulled, beter go change the rules real quick so I am still #1!!! Seen that, been the victim of that greed. Yeah, I will stand on my pedistal and shout it!! Cause it happened to many of us. Yeah, go tell us to read the rules,, he he he he,, We have a saying bout a pulling class with 25 differently stated rules,,,,, That is my opinion, and that is it. enough said. Sorry if you dont agree. ChadS

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FARMALL

09-25-2004 10:32:18




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to ChadS, 09-25-2004 06:59:38  
Why are you picking on the NATPA? You don't pull with them and from what I have seen would not be
compettive. You don't know their rules. Just like I don't know USAP rules. The people crying on this post are poor loosers. Want compettion? Pull NATPA. Want to cry? Cry to your mother.
PS Not looking for an argument, just tired of your whinning.



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ChadS

09-25-2004 12:06:58




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to FARMALL, 09-25-2004 10:32:18  
No one is whinning. Take it however way you want. if that is the way they want it, they got it! I dont have to agree with it, so I dont go there to pull!! I dont pull with NATPA cause of what BS they pulled and it still goes on. I guess as long as the pullers keep coming back, new pullers, not the same ol same ol, that is all that matters. I pick on NATPA because I can, and can argue the BS till the cows come home. Continue to agree, to disagree. You know nothing of my H or if it can be competitive. only I know that. Opinions vary. ChadS

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ChadS

09-26-2004 08:27:22




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 Re: NATPA and a Power Block in reply to Lite Puller, 09-25-2004 13:25:58  
I was shocked to see all that put into the rules. Any puller can be beat. But I like it when the other tractor wins, because it was the best in the class, not the rules beat you out. Yep, I am living in the past. It still jerks my chain when I think about it. Holding a grudge. I guess I am gonna have to give it a chance to see how the new NATPA is now. Then, if I compete, and not get beat by a rule, I will be more than happy to come back, and sing the all mighty praises of the NATPA!! Till then, I am USAP all the way. Pullers get beat, but then what?? You can go home, and cry, like I did, or you jump back in the ring and keep fighting!!! I guess it is time to find out if I have what it takes, to be in the limelight again. You wanna see what me and My "Something Wilder" Farmall H can do? Win, lose or draw. Might have to sell some more parts to get enough $$ to go! The truth of the matter was, I got really mad at NATPA for what happened. Forgive?? yet, never forget. ChadS

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