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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

M-450 horsepower?

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Flogger

03-18-2004 08:48:55




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I found a website that can be used to estimate engine horsepower. Falconperformance.sundog.net. I did some comparisons on stock farmall engines vs modified engines and the numbers seem pretty realistic to me. Not to discount the use of a dyno or dyno tuning, it just seems there a lot of big HP claims being made.

For instance a 281 cid with 8060 [200 cc] head, flat top pistons, 80% volumetric effiecncy, 1500 rpm, 6.3-1 compression ratio, horsepower 39. Add a 40 cc dome to the piston and CR goes to 7.5, HP 47. 60 cc dome, CR 8.4, HP 52.

The 1 inch stroke 333 cid motor with flat tops, CR 7.3, HP 54. With 40 cc dome CR 8.8, HP 65. With 60 cc dome CR 9.8, HP 73.

Again these are only estimations. It's pretty apparent that cubic inches and compression both boost power, only sometimes not as much as we'd hoped for.

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Neil

03-18-2004 14:49:01




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 Re: M-450 horsepower? in reply to Flogger, 03-18-2004 08:48:55  
Well, it seems like it probably is accurate at some compression ratio (probably one that's close to a normal compression ratio like 8:1).

But their equation WAY over estimates the effect of compression ratio.

The equation assumes a linear relationship between compression ratio and power. I know because when I punched in a combination that was 10:1 and then a combination that was 12:1, the later calculated exactly 20% more power corresponding to the 20% increase in compression ratio.

But the relationship between power and compression ratio is not linear - as compression ratio increases the power increases at an exponentially decreasing rate. In other words assume for the sake of argument that a 10% increase in compression ratio from 10:1 yeilds a 10% increase in power. A 10% increase in compression ratio from 11:1 would yeild some gain in power (call it X) less than 10% and a 10% increase in compression ratio from 12:1 would yeild some gain in power less than X.

Additionally, any knowledgeable performance engine builder will assure you that a bump from 10:1 to 12:1 will not yeild 20%. Probably a little less than 10% in reality.

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Flogger

03-18-2004 19:50:09




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 Re: Re: M-450 horsepower? in reply to Neil, 03-18-2004 14:49:01  
I agree Neil. I've played with the formula and you can increase compression way beyond the engine's ability to burn gasoline and power still shows to increase at the same rate. Also you can double or triple the RPMs and make hundreds of horsepower which we all know these antique engines won't do, BUT if you stick pretty close to the engine's actual working parameters the numbers are surprisingly close.

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MGUY

03-18-2004 14:35:55




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 Re: M-450 horsepower? in reply to Flogger, 03-18-2004 08:48:55  
Well I'll be damned!!!!! !!!!! I might have misread..... ..but i did not see any 80-85 HP readings in the information that Flogger had researched.That is because the website he is referring to is REAL. ChadS and the never-never land engine shop is a joke!The reply for the addition of magic piston was priceless not to mention the truth.Run your alligator mouth and hope your parakeet a$$ don't get caught. MAGIC PISTON MAN should be your new forum name instead of Chads

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Redman

03-18-2004 18:16:20




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 Re: Re: M-450 horsepower? in reply to MGUY, 03-18-2004 14:35:55  
i normally don't work on gassers as i like smoke,but if you would like to put your money where your mouth is i would be willing to help you eat a little crow.



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ChadS

03-18-2004 09:21:02




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 Re: M-450 horsepower? in reply to Flogger, 03-18-2004 08:48:55  
Try the equasion with a 90 cc dome on the 281, see what it comes out to. Curiosity. ChadS



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Flogger

03-18-2004 09:45:34




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 Re: Re: M-450 horsepower? in reply to ChadS, 03-18-2004 09:21:02  
Compression ratio 10.2, horsepower 63.



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ChadS

03-18-2004 10:18:34




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 Re: Re: Re: M-450 horsepower? in reply to Flogger, 03-18-2004 09:45:34  
Does this program allow you insert any other specs? Like a custom grind cam? Chad



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ATHYRIO

03-18-2004 11:07:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: M-450 horsepower? in reply to ChadS, 03-18-2004 10:18:34  
Does this program allow you insert any other specs? Like magic pistons? Can you adjust the horsepower for those that can't read a dyno?



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Redman

03-18-2004 18:21:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: M-450 horsepower? in reply to ATHYRIO, 03-18-2004 11:07:37  
the ability for a engine to breathe will effect hp more than compression ratio,so 2 different sets of pistons with identicle compression ratio can have 2 different hp numbers as the pistons will swirl differently.



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Flogger

03-18-2004 10:48:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: M-450 horsepower? in reply to ChadS, 03-18-2004 10:18:34  
Bore, stroke, cc volume, head gasket thickness, piston head type and cc, rpm, and percentage of volumetric effiency.



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Wild Horses

03-18-2004 11:00:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: M-450 horsepower? in reply to Flogger, 03-18-2004 10:48:05  
Try an M Farmall 4.375 flat tops (409 Chevy) with stock stroke, 450 Head w/ .125 decked. stock everything else, 2000 RPM. We're guessing about 80 horse. Thanks



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Flogger

03-18-2004 11:09:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: M-450 horsepower? in reply to Wild Horses, 03-18-2004 11:00:47  
Again this is OLNY an estimate. 315 CID, 7.6-1 compression. 71 HP @ 2000 rpm.



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