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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

gasoline versus propane

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LS

03-05-2004 10:42:28




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Anybody know the fuel efficiency ie gallons per hour tractor miles per gallon tow vehicles of propane compared to gasoline?Also cost factors?I know power is generally less with lp but in these days of watered down gas at a buck and a half plus agallon we have to do something.Thanks.




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buickanddeere

03-05-2004 13:45:00




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 Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to LS, 03-05-2004 10:42:28  
One gallon of LP has 1/2 the energy of one gallon of gasoline, costs about the same per gallon however. Efficiency maybe improved with higher compression but power will drop with a vapour system. A factory injected LP system runs well and doesn't lean out at max power which burns the valves. LP for internal combustion engines is best left on fork lifts. Compressed natural gas with a factory installed system will still pay if fueled at home overnight with a "Fuel Maker". In general, stay away from aftermarket alternate fuel systems.

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LW

03-05-2004 17:26:30




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 Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to buickanddeere , 03-05-2004 13:45:00  
You are a little confused about Lp gas if it gets rich it burns valves, I can prove that with a lp tractor on a dyno with an EGT gauge, and I've a G Moline that make 200hp at 2200rpm on LP Gas and starts better than any Gasoline pulling tractor you have ever seen uses less fuel and runs a lot cleaner, never have had any starter problems anyone in N.C. can comment on hear and let you know how my tractors run on LP.

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buickanddeere

03-05-2004 22:52:17




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 Re: Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to LW, 03-05-2004 17:26:30  
I didn't say that LP burns valves when running rich. The valves burn when the mixture is run too lean. I said many aftermarket conversions run too lean when operated at max, often due to being cheaper undersized equipment. The lack of power on LP makes for more continous full throttle operation to compensate. Which just makes the valves even hotter.



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LW

03-06-2004 16:29:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to buickanddeere, 03-05-2004 22:52:17  
LP does not burn valves when it gets lean.That is my statement, It will burns the valves if its to rich it is backwards from a gasoline engine in that aspect, that is what you are wrong about and I was just clearing things up there is no since in you putting out incorrect information that would stumble someone else.



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buickanddeere

03-07-2004 22:28:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to LW, 03-06-2004 16:29:45  
An over rich mixture burns cooler. If the timing is too late, valve burning becomes an issue along with coolant overheating and exhaust pipes glowing red.



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LW

03-08-2004 05:57:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to buickanddeere, 03-07-2004 22:28:01  
Not with LP turn the fuel up and it will burn all the way out hte pipe and exhaust temp. wil go sky high, since you don't understand find a gas grill and turn the fuel up and see if it gets hotter.



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Jerry B

03-08-2004 06:39:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: gasoline versus propan in reply to LW, 03-08-2004 05:57:47  
I have to agree with buickand deere. As the mixture leans, temps go up. This applies to any liquid or vapor fuel, be it gasoline, LP, acetyline, hydrogen, or whatever.

Yes you can over fuel and gas grill and watch big yellow flames rise into the air. That proves nothing. The real temperature increase occurs as the fuel gets leaner and the flame turns blue. Ever try to use a cuting torch with a yellow flame? You won't cut anything. Lean the mixture down by adding more oxygen (air) and watch the temp go up dramatically as the flame turns blue.

As this blue flame passes by the exhaust valve, the valve temps skyrocket. The valve head increase in diameter, the stem lengthens and the valve no longer seats on its seat properly. The heat is not transfered away from the valve to the seat and the seal is no longer effective. High temperature and compression from the next combustion cycle pushes through the tiny opening in the seating area and, just like your cutting torch, the pressure removes and small amount of metal from the red hot valve head. You now have a valve burn in progress.

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Andy

03-06-2004 07:10:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to buickanddeere, 03-05-2004 22:52:17  
I think the problem is a lot of LP engines aren't set right because they seem to run fine. to be set right they really need to be on a dyno or set with a combustable gas indicator measuring the exhaust gasses. "Aftermarket kits" ,century and impco are the same setups that came from the factory from the 60's on up,(ensign before that). LP needs compression to be efficient and use it's qualities. A lot of conversions didn't raise compression. This is like burning 100+ octane gas in an engine with 100 lbs compression; you'll loose power. I think this is where a lot of missunderstanding about LP and horsepower got started. They do put through more fuel as there is less btu's per gallon,(but higher octane). I checked the nebraska test book for a GB MM a gasolene uses 6.03 gal per hour at rated HP,(65.53) and LP(70.54) uses 7.54 gal per hour. That's 20% more but the LP makes 7% more HP. so it's not a totally fair comparrison.

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Jeff

03-05-2004 19:21:15




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 Re: Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to LW, 03-05-2004 17:26:30  
Uses less fuel? I checked the nebraska test results on a John Deere 4010 on diesel,gas, and LP and the diesel was like 5.5 gals an hour at full load, the gas was about 6.6 and the LP was 9.5. I have an Oliver 1800 LPG that sucks the heck out of it but it sure makes the HP!!!

As for cars and trucks from the people I have talked to who run it LP gets less MPG but at the time they were running it the LP was so much cheaper than gas it was worth the loss. Not now....

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Glen M. Taylor

03-06-2004 08:59:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to Jeff, 03-05-2004 19:21:15  
I said efficiency not miles per gallon. Per btu of available energy from the fuel. A properly set-up LP engine on LP fuel will extract more power than a gasser.



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Andy

03-08-2004 07:58:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to Glen M. Taylor, 03-06-2004 08:59:58  
If you are comparing BTU to BTU,(not gallon to gallon) I would say LP would be more efficient and powerfull than a carburated gas engine. The reason I see it this way is that LP vapor mixes with air better than gasolene microdroplets from a carb. This means more complete combustion. Look at the inside of a muffler on a good running LP engine and a good running gas. You will see a lot more deposits in the gas muffler. LP is also much higher octane than pump gas and loves compression.

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TractorPuller

03-05-2004 11:00:49




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 Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to LS, 03-05-2004 10:42:28  
I just filed my tank for the shop last week and paid $1.65 per gal.,,I don't see that it's worth the time and trouble swithcing to propane,,ANY way,,, just hold on as soon as we get ride of that a$$ and BIG oil,out of the White House the price of fuel will drop,,just my 0.98 cents,,,



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Pete

03-06-2004 06:10:32




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 Re: Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to Lamont, 03-05-2004 21:14:36  
Amen to that. In GOD we trust...



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Flogger

03-05-2004 14:10:35




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 Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to TractorPuller, 03-05-2004 11:00:49  
After agonizing through 8 years of president Bill I'm not too anxious to go back the other way... But thank you for your input anyway Sen Kerry.



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ron

03-06-2004 05:26:37




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 Re: Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to Flogger, 03-05-2004 14:10:35  
do you want to ask another ? about you tractor?



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Flogger

03-06-2004 20:17:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to ron, 03-06-2004 05:26:37  
Propane huh? And all this time I thought LW was running acetylne in that bad Moline.



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buickanddeere

03-07-2004 22:29:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: gasoline versus propane in reply to Flogger, 03-06-2004 20:17:51  
It's hydrazine in that tank mixed with LP



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