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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Welded Sleeves

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Proredpuller

03-04-2004 08:29:35




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Showing my ignorance, can anyone educate me on welding oversized sleeves into a block. Several folks in my area have recommended welding the sleeves in. First question is why, when you can press them into an interference fit and still get them to seal. Basically, what is the advantage or disadvantage. Also, knowing its cast and likely will have to be done with nickel rod, who in the industry is proficient at this and how much might it cost on a 4 cylinder motor once the boring is done and sleeves are purchased?

Thanks in advance.

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PULLER

03-04-2004 18:57:44




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 Re: Welded Sleeves in reply to Proredpuller, 03-04-2004 08:29:35  
WELDING STEEL SLEEVES INTO A CAST IRON BLOCK, SHOULD NEVER BE DONE, BECAUSE YOU ARE TRYING TO WELD TWO DIFFERENT BASE MATERIALS . THE WELDING OF CAST IRON OR BRAZING ( WICH IS 44000 LBS TENSEL STRENGTH) SHOULD INCLUDE PREHEAT AND POSTHEAT.



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TimC

03-05-2004 09:55:33




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 Re: Re: Welded Sleeves in reply to PULLER, 03-04-2004 18:57:44  
WELDING STEEL SLEEVES INTO A CAST IRON BLOCK, SHOULD NEVER BE DONE, BECAUSE YOU ARE TRYING TO WELD TWO DIFFERENT BASE MATERIALS

Sleeves are cast iron. LA and Darton are both centrifugally cast ductile iron sleeves.



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ChadS

03-05-2004 08:42:37




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 Re: Re: Welded Sleeves in reply to PULLER, 03-04-2004 18:57:44  
I will not argue about that at all. Some have told me the same thing. BUT, they also said they have never tried it. What the next post said is right, but the welding rod was wrong for the material. I guess sometimes, that you have to do what you have to do, and try it. In my case I was looking at a boat anchor for a block. And I had no other choice. I did it, and it blended beautifully. The heating method is the traditional way, and an expencive way for a repair, especially when you have to pay a shop to do it. I have a practice block I done before I welded the actual block to test it out. I had brazed, and MIG welded it to try out the best method. After I gas welded it, I had clumps all over the place, LOL the MIG, welded it, no drips, or clumps. I went to the extent to measure warpage in the sleeve, the gas welded sleeve was .015 out, and the MIG was not affected. I belive that too much heat can cause it to fatigue and crack especially in an old block. In cases where I had water casting problems I welded them shut, and re drilled the holes away from the sleeve to give it more distance to seal. I even smacked it with a hammer to try and break it. Just remember that engine blocks are made of mallable cast, and can be welded, and blended with other metals. True, the heat method may be the best method, but not the only alternative. Just my opinion, ChadS

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a puller

03-04-2004 19:26:18




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 Re: Re: Welded Sleeves in reply to PULLER, 03-04-2004 18:57:44  
thanks for the tensle strenght on the braze. I didn't know that. I have to say though that we have had some luck with welding cast and steel together and it holds. the only problem we had was we had a set of cast pistons and welded a piece of steel on the top of them with 7018, and the weld crystalized and the top came off..casuing one heck of a racket....lol.....



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ChadS

03-04-2004 18:18:12




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 Re: Welded Sleeves in reply to Proredpuller, 03-04-2004 08:29:35  
I just went through this on my H. We had the block crack down the middle. lost the seal on the block deck. the block cracked due to stress from way too much compression. it lifted the head, and flexed the block. We are running after market sleeves in this block. We machined grooves, cut into the block, around the sleeves, and then MIG welded them in. There is a nickle wire that is available for welding cast iron, and it welds very well. In my opinion, I like this method of welding because it takes less heat to weld the cast iron. I did not have problems with overheated parts, and warpage in the sleeves. I had to do this method to hold the block deck together and seal the sleeves to keep the water out of the cyl. I machined the block deck once more, and have had no trouble since. I belive that if the engine is done right the first time, you should have no trouble at all, but, for engines tha have ran for a few seasons, fatigue occurs, and stress cracks show up unexpectedly. Just my way of repair. I did the work myself, and had about 200 bucks in the materials, and machine work. CHadS

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buickanddeere

03-05-2004 13:50:51




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 Re: Re: Welded Sleeves in reply to ChadS, 03-04-2004 18:18:12  
Did you preheat the entire block/sleeves before welding, local preheating or just welded her cold? Did you peen the welded area with a hammer as it cooled? What size wire, type of gas and current/polarity? Did you weld just the top of the sleeves or top and bottom? I have a custom overbore project in mind and don't want to ruin it.



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TimC

03-05-2004 19:17:22




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 Re: Re: Re: Welded Sleeves in reply to buickanddeere , 03-05-2004 13:50:51  
Chad, sorry for steeling your thunder.

Brass welding is a safe option although mig is much faster.

He had a loose fit. If your sleeves are interferrance fit and you start welding you can imput to much heat to fast and crack a sleeve. It's my opinion his turned out just fine because of the loose fit on top. He said it was a slip fit so I took it to mean no interferrance. With a thick deck when you weld the sleeves can get quenched to fast and crack a sleeve. Preheat and post heat is a requirement.

Peening is a requirement that might not show its necessity until its been ran some or maybe you get by with luck if you don't. Get the entire peice up to at least 250 degrees before you start. Space heaters help and/or a rosebud. My opinion is to have someone start peening as you work your way across the block with the weld. Post heat it some to normalize and put it to bed in a blanket over night.

Welding the bottom is not necessary as there is a better way to deal with the bottom. You can emial me if interested. There are a couple other things that make the job go much better if you want my opinion.

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TimC

03-04-2004 12:36:10




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 Re: Welded Sleeves in reply to Proredpuller, 03-04-2004 08:29:35  
If you knock out the dry sleeves then bore the wet sleeve out until it is gone also so that a Large bore can be had you are stretching the limits the block can handle without a deck plate.

Unless you get lucky and find a sleeve with a lip on top and still get you to the size bore you want a simple press fit would be difficult at best. Then you would have to machine the bottom of the sleeve so it has the correct interferance.
Also would need some sort of sealing method on the bottom weather it were O-rings or epoxy or a combination of concrete and some sort of sealer.

Then you have to problem with a lot of blocks that straight out of the field have already started splitting down the middle between each cyl. Sort of hard to keep a press fit when the block is changing all the time.

300 to 500 (hopefully a decent guess) but you would need to square things away with the shop because if the block is already bored all the way out then you have already missed out on an opritunity to make the bottom seal the best way.

I think you are missing the point on welding and I mean no disrespect by that. If you saw it then it might make a lot more sense. I can send a pic if it would help and there are others on here with their own pics.

IMHOfwiw.

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Proredpuller

03-04-2004 12:46:29




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 Re: Re: Welded Sleeves in reply to TimC, 03-04-2004 12:36:10  
Tim,

Thanks for your response and no offense taken whatsoever. On our Farmall M's, we have always cut the bore out of the block then bored the top and bottom of the cylinder for the new sleeve making it a wet sleeve block. We have made the bottom a .005 interference fit and just locktite it which has always sealed. Haven't had one leak yet. Then we deck the block slightly to clean up the top and we run them that way. Thus far, unless we run significant compression (greater than 12:1) it holds up fine. If the compression is higher, the block seems to flex at the deck, seemingly due to the lack of structural strength left at the top of the deck, and we blow a head gasket... even with o-ring's. If I understand what you are saying, this is the problem you are solving (amongst others) by welding the sleeves in? Help me understand. If you can email pictures to help explain that would be wonderful. My email is [email protected].

Thanks in advance.

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TimC

03-04-2004 13:49:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Welded Sleeves in reply to Proredpuller, 03-04-2004 12:46:29  
You got it. Please don't advertise as these are just my opinions and prefer not to argue the points. Email me any time if any of what you recieved seems to be of value.



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red paint got to pull

03-04-2004 10:30:54




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 Re: Welded Sleeves in reply to Proredpuller, 03-04-2004 08:29:35  
I cant see no advantage to weld them in if you have it bored and the sleeve fits like it is supposed to. Looks like you will ruin the block for future upgrades. (just my 2 cents worth)



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