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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

What to do to make more torque?

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Ohio G Puller

02-17-2004 14:22:17




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I know compression makes power,but there is a limit to compression,that takes away low end torque.Any simple easy suggestions?
Many thanks for any ideas you may have.




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Ohio G Puller

02-19-2004 05:07:02




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 Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to Ohio G Puller, 02-17-2004 14:22:17  
Many thanks to all of you who took time to answer my question regarding making more torque.You all had good answers,and I will try to put your advice into use.



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Wild Horses

02-18-2004 10:35:26




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 Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to Ohio G Puller, 02-17-2004 14:22:17  
Refer back to an earlier post for my views on RPM. But the best thing for more torque is stroke. Efficency is always good, but they are right it's no replacement for cubes. But it is also neccessary to get all you can out of what you got. Guys are always looking to the ellusive "hidden" horsepower.



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G-MAN

02-18-2004 15:47:53




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 Re: Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to Wild Horses, 02-18-2004 10:35:26  
I think it all depends on a bunch of variables. If you're only getting 70% efficiency out of your engine, increasing the displacment by 10% isn't going to net you as much of a gain as increasing the efficiency by 15%, and it may be cheaper to do the latter. Too much apples to oranges and vice versa in topics like this to come up with a 100% without fail answer.



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CASEPOWER

02-18-2004 16:06:03




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 Re: Re: Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to G-MAN, 02-18-2004 15:47:53  
10% will only get you 30 cubes on a 300 cubic inch engine. If I am going through the trouble of boring and stroking I am going with more then just 1/2 of stroke. Why not go bigger and more efficient. We are trying to win here, are we not?



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TimC

02-18-2004 18:35:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to CASEPOWER, 02-18-2004 16:06:03  
There are really two differant conversations going on here. Yes, 1000 cubes sucking wind will make more power than 500 running right. But why not have 1000 cubes running right.

Original post was a cheap way to make more torque.

It only makes sense to do what ever you have to do to make the most power. At the higher levels thats what it takes or you can stay home. But when you are just out in the shop tueaking around instead of watching cartoons you go ahead and do the freebies since your time is free, provided you would otherwise be watching the cayote.

The later is what I assumed was the intention of the post.

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Wild Horses

02-19-2004 08:12:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What to do to make more torque in reply to TimC, 02-18-2004 18:35:41  
Exactly, sorry if anyone misunderstood me.



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TimC

02-17-2004 19:05:06




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 Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to Ohio G Puller, 02-17-2004 14:22:17  
Since there is no dollar figure associated and you are pin pointing torque here goes.

There is a replacement for displacement and that would be RPMs. I guess not applicable in your case.

Total ign advance should be set so you get as complete a burn and max cyl pressure by somewhere around 7 to 14 (guessing) degrees ATDC.

A good close (but safe) quench area increases turbulance which makes for a more complete burn and alse backs up the Total ignition advance which gains you more power due to not loosing it from to much advance cyl pressure building up before TDC. Not sure JDs are conducive to making quench pads usuefull. Take it with a grain of salt.

In a big bore long stroke 2 cyl (and most other applications for that matter) you want to keep the exhaust valve closed as long as possible to use every bit of cyl pressure possible to increase torque. Yet you have to open it soon enough so you don't loose it all back due to pumping losses. Good exhaust ports will help. Also imporving low lift flow can help evacuate left over exhaust gasses expecially if it is designed to prevent reversion. Good low lift flow would help the blow down period. Cam timing affects part of this and short of changing cam you can increase rocker ratio and add some more lash on the exhaust side to get the valve timing closer to what the engine wants.

On the intake side as already stated effeciency is the key. Volumetric Effeciency of less than 80 percent is probably the norm for most restricted JD motors (and pretty much every other old NA tractor motor, IMHO. Peak torque usually occurs at highest VE so it stands to reason that this is the area to work on. Get the right velocity, cfm and suspended fuel from the entrance to the carb to the cyl. You can increase the flow and loose torque. You can increase the velocity and loose torque, and you can wet the runners down and wash wet fuel into the combustion chamber and loose also. So at peak torque get the velocity up to .6 mach. Get the carb big enough (or small enough, what ever the case is) to get you there.

Venturi area size= CID X RPM X Volumetric Eff / 187,200 Works in most applications for peak power. May need some adjusting running under peak power at low rpms. 600X1200X.90/187200=3.46 square inches or a 2.10 inch venturi. May not be exact but should be ball park. Runner size will determine the velocity. Formula is from tech papers and you can take it for what its worth. Also may not take into account an intake without a plenium to keep the motor feed.

Lengthen the intake runners to take advantage of the ram effect and pressure waves. Like chrysler did with the cross ram intake and all the big 3 do now the the intakes which are lengthed to improve torque.

Sorry for all the rambling but it beats washing dishes. Hope there are not to many inaccuracies as the 2 cyls large CI motors are unique unto themselves.

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CASEPOWER

02-17-2004 19:23:24




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 Re: Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to TimC, 02-17-2004 19:05:06  
Makes me wonder why the winning Deeres in the div 3 and 4 classes are bored and stroked and the Gs are 700 + cubes. I guess stock cubes would have been fine. Who woulda thunk it??



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Buzzman72

02-18-2004 05:27:31




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 Re: Re: Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to CASEPOWER, 02-17-2004 19:23:24  
I believe you're missing Tim's point...which, if I read his post correctly, is--regardless of what engine you have--if you can optimize volumetric efficiency in the targeted RPM range, you will have won the battle. Tim's post was well-thought-out, showed that he has done some research into what makes one engine perform better than another, and pretty informative for generic recommendations.

YOUR post, on the other hand, seems to belittle the idea of making the most power you can by paying attention to the details, and instead just advocates hogging out the bores and welding up as much stroke as you can shove into an engine. But without paying attention to the details that Tim mentions, you'll get beat every time by the guy who does just what you do, but THEN takes the time to do the detail stuff that Tim laid out in his post...and that goes for tractor pulling, stock cars, drag racing, or whatever form of motorsports you choose. If you've never seen the guy with the smaller engine that's built RIGHT beat the guy with the bigger engine that's simply built BIG, then you haven't been around motorsports very long....either that, or you're just not paying attention.

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CASEPOWER

02-18-2004 07:01:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to Buzzman72, 02-18-2004 05:27:31  
I don't guess you read all of the posts. All of what has been posted it true. But dealing with the engines we are working with and getting a engine to run as efficient as possible, is fine in stock class. If you try to do it in a higher div. your wasting time. Take two engines one 300 cubes and one 500 cubes and say they both run 50% efficient. Which one is going to have more torque and more HP?? What I am trying to point out is to get a winning engine you need both cubes and a efficient well designed engine.

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G-MAN

02-18-2004 10:40:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What to do to make more torque in reply to CASEPOWER, 02-18-2004 07:01:48  
It don't matter how much power you make if you can't get it to the ground. There are ten times more pulls won by proper setup and driving than pure power.



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CASEPOWER

02-18-2004 11:39:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What to do to make more to in reply to G-MAN, 02-18-2004 10:40:05  
Your right, but first he ask about torque not traction and Second that system works in stock class at slow speeds more then it does in a div. 4or 5 class. If your theory was correct in all classes then the deeres would be smoken in div. 5.



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G-MAN

02-18-2004 13:36:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What to do to make mor in reply to CASEPOWER, 02-18-2004 11:39:26  
Not if they weren't set up right.



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770

02-17-2004 16:54:32




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 Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to Ohio G Puller, 02-17-2004 14:22:17  
There's no replacement for cubic inch displacement. Period.



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efficiency

02-17-2004 17:32:36




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 Re: Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to 770, 02-17-2004 16:54:32  
there are plenty of them



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CASEPOWER

02-17-2004 18:50:33




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 Re: Re: Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to efficiency, 02-17-2004 17:32:36  
Efficiency only goes so far when working with a non-crossflow, little ported, valve shrouding, poorly designed head. Even harder is that he is talking about a 2 cyl. Once max efficiency is reached (to the best of the builders ability) the way to get the torque is cubes or a supercharger.



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efficiency

02-17-2004 19:51:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to CASEPOWER, 02-17-2004 18:50:33  
take for example an engine bored and stroked to 300 cubes, change the bore and stroke to something less stroke more bore, but same displacement, better rod ratio. Compression can now be increased, strain on crank will be less than the big stroke and less rolling drag, incrased dwell time on piston will make the same size engine breathe better with that same poor head. Now the engine will make more power due to increased efficiency. Seen too many guys go bigger and loose power

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CASEPOWER

02-17-2004 20:22:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What to do to make more torque in reply to efficiency, 02-17-2004 19:51:44  
Wasn't disagreing, but if your dealing with 30% over stock RPM's it is hard for a efficient engine to make the horsepower or torque needed to win at stock Cubes. If you build it big and do it right you have a winner. Speed limits are what keep the big and efficient engines from winning every hook in stock class.



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820puller

02-17-2004 15:37:13




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 Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to Ohio G Puller, 02-17-2004 14:22:17  

dave, you can buy a g that already has torque an hp built into it. see scott. ps we'll see ya this spring.



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CASEPOWER

02-17-2004 15:02:30




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 Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to Ohio G Puller, 02-17-2004 14:22:17  
Cubic inches is the easiest and best way to make torque. Put the cubes in by bore or stroke (stroke in my opinion is best for torque) Good cam grind, good head work, good carb, and manifolds. Get the cubes in and get the air in and out and you will have torque. Ignition and exc. also. Do one thing and it might do better or maybe even worse. Do it all and get it working as a team and you will have something to brag about.

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farmall

02-17-2004 14:28:54




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 Re: What to do to make more torque? in reply to Ohio G Puller, 02-17-2004 14:22:17  
Forget the G if you want HP. Dont get me wrong, the JD is a good tractor, but 2 cyl and high HP are not possible.



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