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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Possible combos for div 5

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Div 5, Just cur

12-18-2003 12:49:01




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After reading the div 5 Natpa rules, and seeing various discussions on here about what motors are legal, and whats not, it seems that the 460 farmall and 88 oliver are at the heart of discussion, but would the following combos fit the bill for other tractors. DC Case, use a 870 motor, same length, after drilling a couple holes it looks stock bolted to bellhousing. H Farmall, use a newer motor from a 574 or 674, basically bolts right in, better motor, more cubes, better flowing heads. Massey 101, instead of the flathead chrysler, run the slant six. Same block length, same engine manufacturer, Cranks even interchange, Wc Allis, start with the 6080 allis motor, block length correct, 5 main bearings, cut down a 190 gas head to 4 cylider, bolt right on, original manufactuer. D-17 diesel, move up to the 301 gas motor. Ford 600, 800, etc. Run the 5000 ford gas motor, length correct, 5 mains, factory crossflow 8 port head, bolts right to bellhousing. Here are some ideas guys, maybe they've been done, maybe not, let me know. want to build one? Tell me. Remember this is for adult discussion purposes, not a arguing contest.

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Mark

12-30-2003 01:01:23




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 Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to Div 5, Just curious, 12-18-2003 12:49:01  
One more thing to think about on the ole slant 6,Mopar Performance,or Direct Connection as it was called in the early 80's,built a crank/cam combo kit for these engines used in marine applications that was good for 12000,THAT'S RIGHT,12000RPM'S.keep that in mind when talking about unlimited rpm's.



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AC PULLER

12-18-2003 20:27:53




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 Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to Div 5, Just curious, 12-18-2003 12:49:01  
The way the rules are now only two tractors fit in Div. 5 3500 and 3750 classes. They are the IH 460 and Olliver 88. The rest can't make the weight classes and most smaller one's like WC super H etc are four cylinders. The big 460 like Bill Bears with the 360 block at over 700 cid. can get into 4000 lb. class so theres no place for a four cylinder tractor there. Lets face it there is no place for a four cylinder tractor in Div. 5. The time may come to keep Div. 5 alive it will have to follow Div. 4 rules on weight limits. The pullers made these rules so until they change them things will stay as they are.

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A.P.

12-19-2003 02:36:05




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 Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to AC PULLER, 12-18-2003 20:27:53  
You are 100% correct about the weight limits. The bigger tractors should be limited to how light they can run. The NATPA used to have rules for this in Div. 5. The 460/560 tractors should runn rpm's based on the 460/560 not the 660. If they want to run 660 rpm's they have to use a 660 rear end and only pull in heavier classes.

Another thought would be to set cubic inch limits for diferent weight breaks and then set the rpm as open or limit it to 3500, 4000, 5000 or 6000 rpm. You would need to mandate more safety equipment but they are moving in that direction already.

My $.02

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State Farm Insurance??

12-19-2003 11:41:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to A.P., 12-19-2003 02:36:05  
4000, 5000, 6000 rpms????? GET REAL! Did you read the accident in Kentucky? Who'd want to be in the same building with one of these tractors turning 6000, let alone the same state?!? If you can't play with these boys, pull div 1 or div 2. I don't want to say div 3 cause they're already spending a lot of money too it appears!!!



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A.P.

12-19-2003 12:10:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to State Farm Insurance??, 12-19-2003 11:41:28  
Those rpm's can be run safely with ADDITIONAL SAFETY EQUIPMENT. This means an SFI flywheel, clutch, damper, scatter blanket and the proper shielding. These rpm levels and higher are being run now at ATPA and NTPA in farm stock/pro farm/hot farm, pro stock and super stock. We had some one in this thread mention the slant six Chrysler. It can run 4000 rpm all day and will run up to 5500 or more in automotive applications.

Some thing should be done, not necessarily what I suggested. The big tractors need to be moved back out of the small tractor classes.

My $.02

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State Farm Ins Adjuster

12-19-2003 15:02:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to A.P., 12-19-2003 12:10:11  
They (NTPA/ATPA) do have all those safety items (SFI flywheels,dampners, cages, cables holding blocks down, firesuits,etc) BUT, and I repeat BUT, they are not pulling for $10 first place, etc....SO, I'd suggest we leave this class to people who are pulling in it and not to a bunch a wanna-be computer analysts who think of these "wonderful ideas" that are not relevant for NATPA INDOOR pulling!!! If div 4 and 5 start getting paid big bucks to win, then yes, bring on the safety stuff! Yes, however, only 660's should run 660 rpms, I agree!

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A.P.

12-19-2003 16:26:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to State Farm Ins Adjuster, 12-19-2003 15:02:59  
A lot of these pullers are already spending $15,000 and up for just the engine. They are usually just pulling for a $10 trophy already. By limiting the cubes and setting a higher rpm limit there is a good chance more than enough money would be left over from doing extreme bore and stroke jobs to pay for the safety items.

How about putting tractors in div. 5 based on RPM and the size of their engine. The more rpm and cubes you build the heavier the lightest class you can pull? A lot of motor sports, including pulling, have cubic inch limits.

My $.02

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cHADS

12-19-2003 20:07:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible combos for di in reply to A.P., 12-19-2003 16:26:38  
Another way to limit rpm,, is if the tractor does not have safety equipment,, no more than 2500,, and enforce it.. If it has the equipment,, the a 3000-3500 limit is justifiable,, in div 5. People spend just as much money on tractors as they do on a mucsle car,, it is a passion,, it is their way of expression. Me personally,, I have had both,, pulling tractors, and muscle cars,, sold the cars, kept the tractors,, lol... I got 5500 in the engine in my H,, far cry from 15,000,,, but have just as much fun. Just my opinion,, ChadS

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RPM's

12-18-2003 13:40:15




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 Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to Div 5, Just curious, 12-18-2003 12:49:01  
Some of it would boil down to RPM's. Take the DC/870 for example. Could someone draw a link between the 2 motors? What are the 870 RPM's? Could the board be swayed to up the RPM's?

I'm curious about the slant six idea. Can you actually build any cubes out of that block? How well did the manifolds/heads flow? Larger selection and easy to obtain? Nice RPM range, worth investigating.

D-17 with the 301 gas. This one may have some real possibility. Was the RPM range the same on the gas and the diesels?

I've been toying with the idea of something differnt...

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G-MAN

12-18-2003 16:19:19




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 Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to RPM's, 12-18-2003 13:40:15  
Yes, there is a BUNCH of potential in the Slant-Six. Heck, Chrysler even built ALUMINUM block slant-sixes way back in the day. Around 50,000 of them, although a lot of them were ruined due to poor cooling system maintenance. Clifford Performance and others specialize in aftermarket parts for six-poppers of various brands - 300 Ford, Slant-Six and so forth. They offer four-barrel intakes, split exhaust manifolds and so forth. I think one of the Mopar mags (Mopar Action or Mopar Performance) did a build-up on an iron-block slant and an aluminum-block slant. They used the four-barrel intake, decent compression and so forth. I think the head was basically stock, with maybe some mild porting and a three-angle valve job, and they had a .020" or .030" overbore. It made something like 235 HP at the rear wheels in a Dart. That would probably figure out to about 280-300 flywheel horsepower, so there is potential there. I don't know what the cubic-inch limit would be, but 300 horsepower with a .020" overbore and a stock stroke is nothing to sneeze at. How much cash does it take to make 300 horsepower with a Farmall or Oliver engine?

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A.P.

12-18-2003 17:50:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to G-MAN, 12-18-2003 16:19:19  
At what is currently allowed for rpm in Div #5 a lot it's possible at all. If You could crank the rpm up to what is allowed the 460 & 560's it would definetly be possible. If higher r's yet were allowed the engine price would start to drop significantly.

RPM is where you would wind up with a problem with the slant six. They are not going to let you have enough rpm to generate the horsepower you are talking about. At 2000-2500 you will have to work real hard to break 150-180 hp.

In Div.5 you need the right combination of cubic inches and rpm. It's where the Case 500, 600 & 900's loose out to the big Molines. The big Molines are allowed roughly 2500 rpm (just about exactly the same as the Olivers) and have twice the cubes as the Olie's. A big Case might be 80% of the Molines displacment but has to run less RPM. Or take the "new generation" 460/560's that have well over 600 cubes and run a 1000 rpm more. Makes it very hard to compete.

My $.02

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G-MAN

12-18-2003 18:01:31




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to A.P., 12-18-2003 17:50:17  
Good points. Heck, I don't even have a dog in this fight, because I'm into those slow old two-bangers. 975 rpm sounds just right to me, lol. I guess maybe they need to have a Div. VI for "open" tractors. But then, you kind of really start getting away from the "antique" part of the NATPA, and may as well just start another association. Even in Div. V, people still recognize them as "antique tractors", regardless of what's under the hood. If you just throw the doors wide open to building anything, I think you'll end up with a bunch of morphodite-looking contraptions with no resemblance to grandpa's old Farmall, Oliver, or whatever.

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ChadS

12-18-2003 18:46:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to G-MAN, 12-18-2003 18:01:31  
Sometimes resemblence is all it takes to be legal in div 4 and 5. Just my opinion,, ChadS



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The Swami

12-18-2003 13:55:15




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 Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to RPM's, 12-18-2003 13:40:15  
Remember, they didn't call the slant six the "Sidehill Hemi" for nothing, if you get a chance check out a head on one, very open. There's one being built in Mn, smaller cubes, high rpms, should really go. Clifford in CA sells all kinds of go parts for this motor too, and reasonable priced.



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G-MAN

12-18-2003 16:20:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to The Swami, 12-18-2003 13:55:15  
Sorry Swami, I didn't see your reference to Clifford in your post, or I wouldn't have put it in mine. Didn't mean to copy you.



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WTW

12-18-2003 13:32:44




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 Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to Div 5, Just curious, 12-18-2003 12:49:01  
Sooner or later it will be all kinds of builders in this class as it just about that way now anyway. I think they should allow all the things you have mentioned and a little more. Lets be fair to all brands and quit segregating the favorites on the NATPA board. I want to see some six cylinder Deere's in there as well. What difference does it make? All the engines they are using are newer than the tractor model year anyway. There is only one reason I can think of why they would not want all brands?? They don't want good competition. Hey like it or not a 4010 is 42 years old, a antique in most definitions is anything over 25 years old! If Bear wanted to pull a JD this change would have been already done.

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ChadS

12-18-2003 15:41:41




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 Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to WTW, 12-18-2003 13:32:44  
Why not create an unlimited class? ChadS



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farmall

12-18-2003 15:01:28




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 Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to WTW, 12-18-2003 13:32:44  
amen



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Pale Rider

12-18-2003 21:24:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to farmall, 12-18-2003 15:01:28  
An Unlimited class is exactly what is needed, the fact that you have 2 classes that are the same except for 10% difference in RPM's is stupid. Change Div. 5 rules to COATPA div. 5 rules and then you would have a class that someone might want to watch. A don't give me the can't get insurence speech that's crap, COATPA has it so can NATPA can get it too if they want to.



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FB

12-18-2003 13:21:39




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 Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to Div 5, Just curious, 12-18-2003 12:49:01  
Don't forget about the farmalls/McCormicks....in a 10-30 motor is susposed to be able to bolt onto an F-30 and can be built to 700+?



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ChadS

12-18-2003 12:56:00




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 Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to Div 5, Just curious, 12-18-2003 12:49:01  
You have got some good ideas!!! I am in the process of changing and rearranging too. Took a IH 6 cyl and bolted it into a H tractor and calling it a 460H. Worked great!!! My opinion is that if the rules let you run it,, build it. Just my 2 cents worth,, ChadS



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The Swami

12-18-2003 12:57:36




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 Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to ChadS, 12-18-2003 12:56:00  
The Swami thinks someone has been doing some homework, very interesting!!!



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ChadS

12-18-2003 13:00:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to The Swami, 12-18-2003 12:57:36  
That is the name of the game right? Studying,, testing and tuning,, seeing how far someone can bend the rules,,, Shoe is fitting nicely,, 6cyl that is,, HA HA,, ChadS



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The Swami

12-18-2003 13:03:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to ChadS, 12-18-2003 13:00:35  
Yes, and the Swami says that sometimes you must use a shoehorn to make the shoe fit, sometimes a small horn, sometimes a "BIG" horn.



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ACE

12-18-2003 13:43:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible combos for div 5 in reply to The Swami, 12-18-2003 13:03:45  
Mean like a RAM?



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