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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Natpa Div. 5, what a joke!

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dale

12-04-2003 00:25:41




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First off guys, I think this page is really great, it's alot of fun reading everyones ideas, mishaps, success, and general B.S. but like everyone else in America I would like to throw my 2.5 cents in the pot. I pull in NW Wisconsin, there are no NATPA pulls around us, now first off, I think it is great to make a national org. for the older tractors, but I read the rules for the div 5 class, what a #@@$ joke! The div 5 is suppose to be the king crap open class, right? But yet there are speed limits, rpm limits, this limit, that limit, blah, blah, blah! So you can run 30% over R's by factory spec, yet a 460 farmall can run more than 30 over of its ACTUAL rated rpms just because the 660 shared a similar, not identical, motor? Bullshit!! In a class like div 5, if you want to have rpm limits, it should be a flat rate across the board for all tractors, 3000 for example? All the Natpa rules make it pretty obvious that you have to have some major cubes in your motor, and some major cash in you wallet to be competitive. With the rpm limits (I'm only picking on Div. 5 now) it strongly favors big cube tractors like molines, deere's, etc. and because of the way the rules are I read about oliver 88's and IH 460's going down to 3500 lbs because there are 800+ cubic inch molines at 5500, thats ridiculous. I can see just from the discussions on this page that Natpa has just as many problems facing them as the Ntpa and Atpa, and probably the biggest problem is people writing rules to satisfy a certain part of the crowd, rather than writing rules to better the sport. When existing rules start chasing 88's into 3500 lbs, something needs to change. I am glad I pull in northern WI, we are just brush pullers up here, but for tractors like the div 5 we just simply have a class called hobby stock, you have to run all the usual safety goodies, has to be updraft carbs, but other than that it's balls to the walls. Headers allowed, any speed you want to go, and NO RPM LIMITS! I would really like to see how your big slow running div 5 motors stack up against 460's 88's, WC's that can twist upwards of 6000 r's, if anyone would like to come up here, I can tell you where to find a pull, now this invite is made in the terms of good will and competition, not with any intentions of starting hatred and spite. These are just some of my thoughts and opinions, in this wonderful country we live in we are all fortunate enough to have the right to express them, and these ideas are posted with the hopes of making some good discussion material, not bad feelings.

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farmall 'm'

12-08-2003 16:47:52




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 Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to dale, 12-04-2003 00:25:41  
try thinking before you write! You need to put on a indoor pull with tractors twisting 6 grand!
Try to get insurance! What about public safety!
you must be bored with nothing better to talk about.



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big jugs

12-05-2003 20:30:55




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 Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to dale, 12-04-2003 00:25:41  
yup, you're all right. I pull up here in N.W. wisconsin where they have the hobby stock. no difference though really. If a guy is a member for a long time, get's beat, builds bigger and maybe stretches the rules a bit it gets overlooked cause he's been a "member for so long". as for payback, same thing. We do payback based on number of entries. the big hobby boys with maybe 20-60,000$ tractors are bitching cause they don't get much payback. Now figure it this way...you have 25 tractors in a 7000lb farm class, split the winnings up from 25 tractors, they are able to make virtually all pulls because of durability. now take the big hobby guy who breaks every other pull or can't finish the season because he has no more parts or money left to repair his "edge of death" tractor, and that class only finishes the season with 4 tractors in it, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE PAYOFF WILL BE?????

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big jugs

12-05-2003 20:28:06




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 Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to dale, 12-04-2003 00:25:41  
yup, you're all right. I pull up here in N.W. wisconsin where they have the hobby stock. no difference though really. If a guy is a member for a long time, get's beat, builds bigger and maybe stretches the rules a bit it gets overlooked cause he's been a "member for so long". as for payback, same thing. We do payback based on number of entries. the big hobby boys with maybe 20-60,000$ tractors are bitching cause they don't get much payback. Now figure it this way...you have 25 tractors in a 7000lb farm class, split the winnings up from 25 tractors, they are able to make virtually all pulls because of durability. now take the big hobby guy who breaks every other pull or can't finish the season because he has no more parts or money left to repair his "edge of death" tractor, and that class only finishes the season with 4 tractors in it, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE PAYOFF WILL BE?????

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Mathias

12-07-2003 18:29:51




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 Re: Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to big jugs, 12-05-2003 20:28:06  
From what i can see on a typical saturday pull in northern wisconsin is just an excuse to drink beer during the day and compete for bragging rights. If a person is concerned about payback because they have spent so much money on their tractor maybe they should look for a new hobby. If they took up quilting maybe they could actually make some money from their hobby.



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EXCELLENT

12-05-2003 00:36:58




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 Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to dale, 12-04-2003 00:25:41  
Make copies of these posts and drop them on Japan it will do as much good as if you were to tell the board members with a 4 year school.

all of you made a very good point.
NATPA NEEDS A NEW BOARD! looking out for the sport,not their own tractors


Keith Merfeld



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greenweenie

12-04-2003 16:53:45




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 Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to dale, 12-04-2003 00:25:41  
To all the gentlemen that made comments, I have to agree with most of what you say. I am at this time a charter member of NATPA. I started in this organization as a division III puller and five years later, I am still a division III puller. The one big change that I have noticed, I am a division III puller, pulling against division IV tractors. All of the division III tractors have dropped down into II. I would like to see the tractor pull that Division IV and V could put on without Division II and III. According to their paybacks, they couldn't pay for the scale fee, let alone a sled. But it has always bothered me that 90% of the boards attention is directed to Divisions IV and V. Now there are some people who are trying to get a V8 class started. What part of this is antique tractor pulling? For that matter, what is antique about a 460 or 560 IHC? I pull an unstyled tractor and the day I have to pull a classic, I will no longer be an antique tractor puller. I do not believe in being a big fish in a small pond, as most of our Division V pullers are now. Anytime you put an Oliver 88 or 460 IHC, in the 3500 lbs class, you're not only a big puss, but you don't think much of your life or limbs. It's pretty easy to point the machine at the end of the track and pull the hammer and hold on. Build that much horsepower and get it to the ground at 3.5 mph. The argument you will get from your Division V pullers is, they are real crowd pleasers. If this is a fact, why, when they win a class, it is very seldom, they get their hook fee back? It's a proven fact that NE or CO, at Division II pulls, it is not uncommon for the first three places to share a $300 purse. Who are the fools in this sport? But if NATPA does not control the Division III tractors dropping into Division II, they will have another class they cannot control such as Division V. If they let 1963 and later tractors pull Division V, this lets in 4010, 4020, and like size tractors. The next thing will be turbos and that's when I put my tractor in the living room of my home surrounded with flowers and put a lamp shade on it.

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ChadS

12-04-2003 17:44:21




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 Re: Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to greenweenie, 12-04-2003 16:53:45  
I agree with you,, about the div 3 tractors going back to div 2.. Turns it into a Hp game again. I had that way of thinking,, years back,, when all you seen in the 3500 classes was Farmall H,, Aliis,, Wc-Wd45,, Oliver 66 etc,, the rules said no Oliver 77 below 4000, no 88's below 4500.. 460.. M,, 4500. Then one day, at Wilmington, Ohio pull,, there was 77's in the 3500, then there was a 3750 class,, and all of a sudden,, every 88 that can get that light,, was in the class, from div 4 and 5. USAP, pull last weekend,, had a oliver 77 in the 12mph class,, did not have a 77 engine in it,, they had to build the side curtains around the engine,, Of course,, in the USAP,, don't ask,, don't tell. I consider my H a div 3 tractor, but it was strong enough to run in a div 4 or 5 class,, but not hold water against a 88 or 77 in a no speed limit class. That is why I run USAP,, in the 8&12 mph classes,, even though the 77's can bump the speed limits,, they still have to stay under it,, To me,, it keeps the competition kind of level,, when you have a higher Hp div 3 tractor that can run in the fast classes. Just my opinion,, ChadS

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Idea

12-04-2003 19:08:49




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 Re: Re: Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to ChadS, 12-04-2003 17:44:21  
Chad, Do you think if pulling associations like USAP and NATPA would limit tractors to pull in one division only it would change allot of the problems they have. If they do let them jump a division one only and only allow them to pull in one weight class. Example: If you pull in the 3500# division 5 you will not be allowed to pull the 3500#in div 4 you would have to pull another weight class to pull in division 4. I think this would keep the higher HP tractors in the higher divisions where they belong and give lesser modified tractors a chance at a place in the classes they belong. Just a thought. I totally agree with the previous post about the 560 and 88 in the 3500# classes.

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Phil Munson

12-04-2003 11:29:32




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 Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to dale, 12-04-2003 00:25:41  
Through this and other posts, one thing is for sure, the NATPA board is regarded as having the same (lack) moral fiber and character as the ENRON crowd.



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dctom

12-04-2003 08:13:44




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 Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to dale, 12-04-2003 00:25:41  
I agree 100%, i went to one of the first meetings they had and i could see that this is the way they would end up, you cant make that rule cause my JD or M cant do that If you come in with something they cant beat on the track they will beat you with the rules, to have a div 3 or 4 tractor put on uncut tires and pull with div 2 is B S also



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XNATPA

12-04-2003 08:00:41




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 Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to dale, 12-04-2003 00:25:41  
Dale, Well I see that I am not the only one that feels the same way you do. I left the so called association four years ago when I had the same ill feeling about it. I had been supporting it 100 % from the day it started. I agree 100% that if you are going to have a open type division quit favoring the Bear & Birch favorites and make it fair for every one, but when you have the money and power they seem to have it will never change. If you try to say anything about it they will tell you that you should be a member and come vote at there rules meetings. I used to do that but what good does that do when the so called board of directors just turns around and change the rules to there favor without any members vote or say in it. Yes I am referring to the joke of the NATPA rpm limits. The board showed there true qualities (again) and what they stand for when the controversy over the 360 / diesel / Ford truck / V8 heads / gas / tractor come in and it was absolutely legal right out of the box. If you or I built this thing we would of been run off. I can remember when the WC Allis had to run the same RPM limits as all other brands until someone on the board that pulled a WC thought they needed a advantage, he got his way. Personally I don't care what they do as I am not going to support it anyway. Anyone that does you better get used to it as it not going to change. One thing for sure though it will get worse. The excuse they are going to tell you about open RPM will be it is a safety issue and insurance liability. I can except that for an answer but, I cannot except there favoritism. Division 5 is a money game controlled by the board and nothing more than that. Division 4 is not too bad of a class. Division 3 is a practice class for division 4. Division 2 is a class for the tech officials to pick on tractors and members to make themselves look important. Division 1 is to say we got it even though they seldom or never use it. One thing in common all divisions have is something to make a puller think there is a place for them so the NATPA can collect a check from them so they can support there program. I am a member of and support six associations but NOT the NATPA. As long as the same click is controlling it I am not going to either. They won't miss me anyway.

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razorback

12-04-2003 05:10:44




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 Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to dale, 12-04-2003 00:25:41  
i totally agree with you, there rules are for there club officals only,notice they the so call big boys only pull at natpa pulls where they control the rules,



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larry hardin

12-04-2003 05:18:57




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 Re: Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to razorback, 12-04-2003 05:10:44  
I'd love to see and hear a WC turning 6 grand down the track. I built one and would run 4500-5000 and it pulled good and sounded good, but there ain't no place to pull it here in Ohio, so I switched to a rpm cam, and mess around in DIV. 3. Sure need to get some info on getting a stroker crank, etc what works, what doesn't, etc. also trying to find out if just the ring and pinionn out of an RC will fit or do I need to swap the rear end.Thanks

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ChadS

12-04-2003 10:14:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Natpa Div. 5, what a joke! in reply to larry hardin, 12-04-2003 05:18:57  
That is the same reason I don't pull NATPA anymore,, too much favorietism,, At first it was not a color war,, then the rules have changed for certain brands of tractors.. giving them the advantage,, I am like XNATPA on this,, I seen the same thing he did,, I do support pulling organizations,, but not ones that changethe rules every time one of the celebrities get beat. ChadS



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