Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Attention Forum Users: On the 28th of December 2023 at 9:00am Central Time, we will be taking the forums down for maintenance while we prepare the new forums for your use. Please click here for more information.

Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

High Ratio Rockers

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
Farmall Boy

10-29-2003 12:57:39




Report to Moderator

What are the Hight ratio rockers from murphys motor service susposed to do....like more HP or torque??




[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Mark not from Genoa

11-03-2003 21:42:31




Report to Moderator
 Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Farmall Boy, 10-29-2003 12:57:39  
I would like to say that now all the p@%$ing and moaning is over,that whoever said anything was correct.I would like to add that increased duration,or time valve is opened,decreases low end torque and this does not matter if you have 4"stroke or 8"stroke.The key is to have all the parts working together.The longer stroke engines have more low end torque thus the loss is not as great.Where this loss comes from is valve overlap,or the amount of time that both valves are open before and after top dead center exhaust.This is called scavenging,when the hot gases are leaving the combustion chamber causing a vacuum,and the cooler intake gases are starting to be drawn in.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Tyler Neff

10-30-2003 22:38:22




Report to Moderator
 Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Farmall Boy, 10-29-2003 12:57:39  
I just wanna know if they work.Could somebody answer that? I run a stock cam does that make a difference.The formula for HP dont mean s@#$ to me.Would these roller rockers be better than having your stock rockers cut? A man with what sounds like a pretty stock A says he seen a difference,but what about these big stroker engines would it help them as well? Im getting old so an answer would be good soon.HEY CHADS hows it goin?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G-MAN

10-31-2003 04:48:23




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Tyler Neff, 10-30-2003 22:38:22  
Like I posted in my first reply, higher-ratio rockers WILL open the valves further, and WILL keep them open longer, enhancing engine breathing. That WILL increase performance to some degree, how much depends on the engine, RPM, other modifications and about 100 other variables. Is that #$%@&'ing simple enough for you?



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Tyler Neff

10-31-2003 19:41:43




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to G-MAN, 10-31-2003 04:48:23  
HEY E=MC(5X2)=125%/2-50X30=X/HP=torque(idiot)this is the formula for HP if u live in POLAND Im sure this should help most of you.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G-MAN

11-01-2003 05:49:34




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Tyler Neff , 10-31-2003 19:41:43  
It amazes me when people that can't even do simple math, or understand basic operating concepts of internal-combustion engines think they're going to throw together an engine out of spare parts, baling wire and duct tape and think they're going to make huge power. All of the best engine builders of all time (Keith Black, Grumpy Jenkins, Smokey Yunick) all had good backgrounds in basic engine science before going on to fame as hot-rodders. The only idiots are the ones that spend big money trying to get the same power that a few minor and cheap mods could get them. You can call me and idiot all you like, but I'm not the one that doesn't understand torque and how to build it.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Ross Provine

10-31-2003 08:20:18




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to G-MAN, 10-31-2003 04:48:23  
I agree that the higher lift rocker ratio can increase hp. But, just so I'm clear on this without mods to the intake/exhaust track will you be able to actually see a noticable difference or not? I mean will the engine be able to take advantage of the longer opening time without modifying the intake/exhaust manifold?
Ross



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G-MAN

10-31-2003 10:48:02




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Ross Provine, 10-31-2003 08:20:18  
That's going to depend on the specific engine, but usually, I would say that the valve itself is the limiting factor when it comes to flowing air. If you can increase it's size, open it further, or keep it open longer, it will increase performance, but only up the actual port's ability to flow air. In other words, you could hog out the seat and put a big honking valve in it, or install a much bigger cam, but if the port can't flow all the air that the valve can, you've wasted your money. And, the power increase will NOT be huge by just swapping rockers - maybe a few percent, which doesn't amount to much on a 50 horsepower machine. That's the key factor - are the rockers going to produce enough extra power to justify the cost. That's up to the individual buying the parts. The roller rockers I've seen advertised aren't cheap - a cam regrind is much less expensive, but it's also a lot more work to pull a cam and have it ground than it is to bolt on a different set of rockers. Another benefit to most of the aftermarket rockers is roller tips, which will free up some power, and also reduce the "scrubbing" action of the rocker on the valve stem, which is better for the guides and saves wear.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Buzzman72

10-30-2003 08:19:54




Report to Moderator
 Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Farmall Boy, 10-29-2003 12:57:39  
G-MAN is correct, with the formula; those of you who are arguing with him, whether you know it or not, are just playing word games. Without torque, there is no horsepower. AND without RPM, there is no horsepower (as in, a thousand pound torque on a shaft that doesn't turn...since there's no motion--rpm--there's no horsepower). And the NASCAR example...those cars DO make torque as well as horsepower; just not as MUCH torque at lower RPM's. EVERY reciprocating engine produces torque--or rotational force--and every reciprocating engine produces horsepower, by definition.

To answer the question that precipitated all this discussion, a high-lift set of rocker arms keeps the valve open longer AND at a higher lift; this allows for more of the air/fuel mixture to enter the cylinder on the intake stroke (assuming the intake runner has sufficient volume to take advantage, and not restrict airflow). This provides a denser mixture in the cylinder upon compression (i.e., higher cylinder pressures), which, under complete combustion, SHOULD provide a bigger "BANG" when the plug fires (more fuel + more air = bigger explosion). And the increased rocker arm ratio on the exhaust valves allows more time AND more valve opening for the expanded combustion gases to escape from the cylinder on the exhaust stroke (making a parallel assumption about the volume of the exhaust runner that we made about the intake runner, above).

Therefore, AT A GIVEN RPM, the torque will have increased, because of the higher cylinder pressure achieved against the piston top as a result of combustion; and, by definition, and using the formula G-MAN gave us, AT THIS PARTICULAR RPM, horsepower will have increased.

This is simple physics and math; it doesn't require a knowledge of calculus, differential equations, or quantum mechanics. And I'm by NO means a know-it-all; I just stayed awake in high school.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dennis Minn

10-29-2003 22:23:33




Report to Moderator
 Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Farmall Boy, 10-29-2003 12:57:39  
I ain't a know-it-all...but torque is a twisting force, a pure function of how much can a piece can be twisted rotationally in foot-lbs(lbs-foot for the purist), and conversely, horsepower is how FAST the job gets done (time-dependent..the faster, the greater the horses). Now who's right in the internal combustion arena depends on the engine and it's ability to be "upgraded" in the intake/exhaust department. A lower RPM engine might win the torque war, but the higher revving engine may well win the HP banner. There's a curve for all to interpret, it's usually read as horsepower, period. The drawback to that is that the maximum torque (read tire turning power) is usually rated at a specified speed. I'll try to simplify my words here, the torque versus rpm curves developed by any engine can be plotted on a graph, and the area contained beneath those curves are defined as HP. If I am wrong on, the intent was not to offend, just ask which engine has more torque, a low rpm diesel or a high rpm aircraft motor.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G-MAN

10-29-2003 13:48:24




Report to Moderator
 Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Farmall Boy, 10-29-2003 12:57:39  
Increasing the rocker ratio effectively increases the valve lift and the duration of time it is opening, without having to do a cam swap. Increased lift and duration = better breathing - more time to get fuel and air in, and more time to get exhaust out. More air and fuel means a bigger bang and more torque. More torque = more horsepower at a specific RPM (horsepower is a function of torque and RPM, not a separate measurement of it's own).

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jd Puller

10-29-2003 14:41:10




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to G-MAN, 10-29-2003 13:48:24  
okay then tell me this..... take a nascar engine. they are high rmp and high horse power engines but dont have much torque. it all depends on the application of the power needed. the cam, the pistons, the rocker ratio, all plays a big part on how the engine is going to perform. AND BY THE JUST SO THAT EVERYONE KNOWS I AM NOT A KNOW IT ALL.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
770

10-30-2003 15:45:39




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Jd Puller, 10-29-2003 14:41:10  
A typical nascar engine, Hendricks, penske ent...etc... is roughly about 650 horses, give or take how long the track is (believe me, it matters). The engines produce a tad more than 380-400 ft lbs of torque. They are NOT dyno'd at 8300 rpm however....follow me here..... When your tractor is lugging at the end of the track, it too also is NOT at the dyno'd rpm.... apples and oarnges.....Just my thaughts.....

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
770

10-30-2003 15:47:26




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to 770, 10-30-2003 15:45:39  
my mistake.....580-600 ft lbs of torque....sorry.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G-MAN - here's your link

10-29-2003 16:05:20




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Jd Puller, 10-29-2003 14:41:10  
This link is to a torque/horsepower primer. I think that if you'll read it, you'll find that everything I posted is exactly correct. Like I said, if you've increased your horsepower at the same RPM, you've increased the torque. The cam, pistons and rocker ratios you mention do EXACTLY what I said - increase the force being applied the crankshaft by the pistons and rods, which increases the twisting force produced by the crankshaft, which is TORQUE. If that makes me a know-it-all, so be it.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G-MAN - LINK

10-29-2003 16:06:06




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to G-MAN - here's your link, 10-29-2003 16:05:20  
Link



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G-MAN

10-29-2003 15:59:13




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Jd Puller, 10-29-2003 14:41:10  
It's simple engine math, and there are a number of sites on the internet that explain the relationship between horsepower and torque. Horsepower is figured using a formula based on torque and RPM. In fact, that formula is as follows: Horsepower equals torque multiplied by engine rpm, divided by 5252, or HP=(Torque x RPM)/5252. The ONLY way to increase horsepower is by increasing torque OR the engine speed, but even if you increase the engine speed and torque still drops off (as it does above an engines peak torque RPM), you could increase the speed a bunch and STILL not gain any horsepower, because you've lost torque. People talk about increasing horsepower, when if they make more horsepower at the same rpm, what they've really increased is torque. A dynomometer does NOT read horsepower, it simply shows torque and RPM AS horsepower, by performing the above formula. I'm not a know-it-all either, but I sure as heck know the relationship between torque and horsepower, and anybody else that knows how it works will back me up. I can post you some links to sites about figuring horsepower if you're still in doubt. I know what I'm talking about.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jd Puller

10-29-2003 17:58:18




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to G-MAN, 10-29-2003 15:59:13  
okay so I guess I dont know what the h e l l I am talking about and yet I have 8 state champions under my belt and doing ver well in the nationals. But I know jack sh!t



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Correct Police

10-30-2003 08:34:38




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Jd Puller, 10-29-2003 17:58:18  
You nailed it on the head.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G-MAN

10-30-2003 10:17:16




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Correct Police, 10-30-2003 08:34:38  
Who nailed it on the head?



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
buickanddeere

10-30-2003 06:25:17




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Jd Puller, 10-29-2003 17:58:18  
You didn't pass math or physics in high school. You can put 1000lb ft of toque on a shaft all day. If it doesn't turn there is no work being done and no HP. Having enough coin to hire an engine builder and tire cutter plus have the time to attend every pull doesn't make you a understand basic math.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CASEPOWER

10-29-2003 20:04:26




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Jd Puller, 10-29-2003 17:58:18  
HaHa you can't tell G-man nothing. He hooked a pickup to the sled once and now knows it all. A man told me you could fit all he knows about pulling in a thimble and still have room for a book of matches. I did hear he was a good 1/16 scale Carpet puller though... Have a nice day G-man Hehehehehaheha



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G-MAN

10-30-2003 07:54:05




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to CASEPOWER, 10-29-2003 20:04:26  
No, the real funny thing is that you're backing up a guy who claims to be a very successful John Deere puller, when time and again, you've claimed that Deeres aren't worth a crap for pulling. And you're also backing up somebody that is wrong, when you claim to be a mechanical genius. A little conflict of interest, perhaps? Hehehehehe - I'm laughing now.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CASEPOWER

10-30-2003 12:24:52




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to G-MAN, 10-30-2003 07:54:05  
Who said I was backing up anyone??? Actually I agree. I was telling your fellow deere man that it does no good to argue with you. Anyone who don't believe added lift and duration by changing the rocker ratio don't work and can't read well enough to understand why are just peeing in the wind anyway. Back to what I was saying. Telling you anything (right or Wrong) is like peeing in the wind.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G-MAN

10-30-2003 13:57:24




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to CASEPOWER, 10-30-2003 12:24:52  
Are you any different?



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CASEPOWER

10-30-2003 14:35:35




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Roc in reply to G-MAN, 10-30-2003 13:57:24  
Not a bit different.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
MAD DUC

10-30-2003 03:09:29




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to CASEPOWER, 10-29-2003 20:04:26  
I'm not going to get into a childish, but,...I'm a mechanic by trade, attended school for it and not as so many of you like to throw around a "Know-it-all", but G-MAN is correct. HP is a result of torque and rpm. I for one appreciate G's knowledge.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CASEPOWER

10-30-2003 14:41:52




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to MAD DUC, 10-30-2003 03:09:29  
You can get G-mans knowledge from any book. If you read every book ever made on fishing and remembered it all then would that make you a great fisherman?? Not if you couldn't find the water!! G-man is like a computer. The input is put in by reading software that was made by a human. Trial and error makes the best pullers and theres no books on that. CASEPOWER



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G-MAN

10-30-2003 07:44:48




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to MAD DUC, 10-30-2003 03:09:29  
Thanks for the backup. It's not like I just made up that formula and posted it. It's plain and simple fact, and engine mathematics. It doesn't matter WHO posted it - nothing about how horsepower is computed is changed.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
dctom

10-30-2003 10:32:04




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to G-MAN, 10-30-2003 07:44:48  
AND THIS IS ONE TIME I AGREE 100% WITH G MAN, HAVE THEM IN MY DC AND IT REALLY HELPS, COOL IT G MAN I AM ON YOUR SIDE WITH THIS ONE LOL DCTOM



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G-MAN

10-30-2003 11:01:45




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Roc in reply to dctom, 10-30-2003 10:32:04  
No problem, dctom - I'm as cool as can be, because I know I'm right. I don't think the dispute is really over if the rockers help, but more about what horsepower really is. My point was that if a modification increases your horsepower at a certain RPM, you've actually increased torque, and nothing more. I made my point and am more than ready to drop the whole discussion. By the way, who makes the rockers for the DC?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
dctom

10-30-2003 12:32:33




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Ratio in reply to G-MAN, 10-30-2003 11:01:45  
I did, just cut them off and shortened them about 1/4/ inch, did that years ago at that time we called them a poor mans hopped up cam lol dctom



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Chads

10-29-2003 14:58:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Jd Puller, 10-29-2003 14:41:10  
My opinion is this.. There are thousands of bolt on parts that work and alot that don't. I have found that the roller rockers that Murphys offer is a good investment, but,,, If you don't have a engine that is properly set up, it will be useless. I have worked on an M that had this setup, I even swapped them out with stock rockers to see what the difference was. They do help relive friction, and help with the breathing compacity. But not much hp gain for the money a puller would spend for a high priced component. Chads

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jd Puller

10-29-2003 13:46:18




Report to Moderator
 Re: High Ratio Rockers in reply to Farmall Boy, 10-29-2003 12:57:39  
the higher ratio rockers will allow more fuel into the engine every time the intake opens and allow a larger space for the exhaust to exscape out of There for creating more power in both torque and horsies. I am running a set on my 37 A john deere started with about 30 hp before I installed them and after I was getting 45 hp. and a hole lot more lugging power.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy