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Boy I dread tonight!

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Jak

06-21-2006 13:55:13

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I have to spray two Oliver 1850 fenders tonight and it is hottt and humid here in west TN.I have to drain my air compressor every day and man at the water that comes out of it and my drier.I am using medium to slow reducer.I underestimated the surface area of these fenders,theres a lot.I don't know what all these fenders endured in thier life but it was rough whatever it was.Happy painting fellas,Jack(TN).

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Frank Stalfire

06-21-2006 20:40:09

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Re: Boy I dread tonight! in reply to Jak, 06-21-2006 13:55:13

Hate to mess up plans but I would use a fast reducer for your painting tonite, the reason being the humidity, yes it's hot and when it's hot use fast but when it gets humid go the other way with reducer. Think about what you have going on, you are going to use a reducer that is engineered to evaporate slowly and with the humidity high it will evaporate slow naturally, if the air is saturated with moisture there is no where for the solvent to go so it lays in the film, and if you are using a catalyst thats a double whammy because the film will start to crosslink with a ton of solvent still in it, thus you get dye back and solvent pop.
Frank

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B-maniac

06-22-2006 19:20:17

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Re: Boy I dread tonight! in reply to Frank Stalfire, 06-21-2006 20:40:09

Just read your post Frank,and to be honest,I'm a little confused. The first sentence you say to use a fast reducer,reason being humidity. Second sentence you say when it's hot use fast but when humid go the other way,which I believe would be slow? Just my opinion from 35 yrs exp,but I would go with slow. The last thing I want is for that film to skin over before most of that moisture and solvent has had a chance to get out. To me that is what is going to cause the solvent popping and hazing.Also,I really don't think all types of paint follow the same set of rules reguarding heat and humidity so since he didn't tell us what he was spraying,it's hard to give valid advise.I respect your years as a paint Rep.,but I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Thank You , "B"

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Frank Stalfire

06-22-2006 21:29:08

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Re: Boy I dread tonight! in reply to B-maniac, 06-22-2006 19:20:17

HI Rod, I should have pointed out what B Maniac said about us not knowing what quality of paint was being used, my references were directed to a catalyzed product where you have the solvent in the catalyst to deal with and if you choose a solvent slower then the solvent in the catalyst you will trap solvent and see dye back and pop. And being in humid weather you have the air thats full of moisture not allowing solvent to evaporate and you can get yourself into trouble. If all products and instances need to be brought to light then you could keep a slow solvent and use a slower product and or catalyst and the issue becomes irrelavant. The tech piece you pasted, I will assume because of the date of print is referencing a product thats dries by evaporation and not a catalyzed product which I should have been more clear in my response that I was referencing a 2K product. I did just blurt that response without providing more details to explain it. The short of it is, high humidity will slow dry times and make dye back and solvent pop a real issue, I tell the painters in the shops I service to use fast reducer in 2K products and if they are doing a large job I would rather see them slow down the dry time with the use of a slower activator/catalyst. hope taht explains things better
Frank

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Rod (NH)

06-23-2006 17:03:12

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Re: Boy I dread tonight! in reply to Frank Stalfire, 06-22-2006 21:29:08

Frank,

The 1985 Handbook doesn't make any distinction between catalyzed and uncatalyzed paints in it's segment on reducer requirements for different temperature and humidity conditions. The handbook covers catalyzed paints; in fact they were used quite extensively in 1985. I was using them myself then. The "Safety and Health Practices" section of that same handbook even covers the issue of isocyanates and supplied air quite definitively. Kudos to DuPont for making it unambiguous, even back then. The 1989 reprint of that handbook has the same reducer wording, also w/o regard to any product being catalyzed or uncatalyzed. In some (many?) cases there is only a single choice for a catalyst anyway and selecting a slower one in combination with a faster reducer for high humidity conditions is simply not an option.

In any event, the matter is only academic to me since I simply don't paint when I think the humidity is significantly above "normal".

BTW, does DuPont still publish that "Auto Refinishing Handbook"? If so, I would be interested in getting a newer version of it.

Rod

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Frank Stalfire

06-23-2006 21:30:50

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Re: Boy I dread tonight! in reply to Rod (NH), 06-23-2006 17:03:12

Hi Rod.. thanks for the info, DuPont currently only puts out a refinisher tech manual which has some pages on paint technique and tips, and a paint defect book which identifies defects and list possible cause and repair
Thanks
Frank

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CNKS

06-23-2006 16:07:03

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Re: Boy I dread tonight! in reply to Frank Stalfire, 06-22-2006 21:29:08

Frank, leaving the humidity out of it, as it usually does not effect me where I live, is solvent pop reduced in "normal" conditions by using a fast reducer and slower hardener, or it that only when when that humidity is high? I have a problem that I am 75% sure is contamination, and had ruled out solvent pop, etc, but now I'm not so sure. PPG Omni uses fast, slow, and very slow hardeners; and fast, medium, slow, and very slow reducers. PPG does not specify the temperature ranges of these, but Rod has come up with a reasonable estimate. The usual setup is slow hardener and medium reducer for 70-80 degrees. I have used fast hardener, medium reducer if I thought I could not maintain 70 degrees in the winter with my fans running--perhaps that should be the other way around? Currently at 80-85 degrees I am using slow hardener and slow reducer. None of these combinations has affected the problem I have, it is still there to varying degrees. Wonder what would happen if I used FAST reducer and slow hardener at 80-85 degrees? Seems to me it would dry too fast? I am not having currently having any problem with flash times or dry times -- just curious. Hope I worded this thing right.

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Frank Stalfire

06-23-2006 21:28:39

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Re: Boy I dread tonight! in reply to CNKS, 06-23-2006 16:07:03

Hi CNKS, I always have ans still do preach slow hardener/fast reducer. I learned it from my days as a Spies Hecker rep and follow thru now with DuPont, solvent pop is always trapped solvent/ wether it be trappped from to fast a catalyst, to slow reducer or excessive film build keeping solvent deep in the film, humidity just worsens this because the solvent slows its evaporation. Frank

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CNKS

06-24-2006 08:41:27

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Re: Boy I dread tonight! in reply to Frank Stalfire, 06-23-2006 21:28:39

Thanks, I think I'll try it, nothing to lose except the cost of the reducer. One more step in determining my problem.

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Frank Stalfire

06-22-2006 20:06:39

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Re: Boy I dread tonight! in reply to B-maniac, 06-22-2006 19:20:17

Sorry for any confusion, I did mean to say use fast when it is humid and slow when hot and dry, reason being the difficulty for solvent to evaporate with air saturated with moisture regardless of ambient temp
Frank

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Rod (NH)

06-22-2006 20:45:44

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Re: Boy I dread tonight! in reply to Frank Stalfire, 06-22-2006 20:06:39

Frank,

I am still a little confused too. There are usually several choices between fastest and slowest. Hot/dry would call for the slowest. Cold/humid would call for the fastest. Are you saying to use the fastest when hot/humid?

Here's what the 1985 edition of DuPont's Auto Refinishing Handbook says about it:
third party image
That would seem to imply one step faster when it is both hot and humid. In other words a little less slow but still slow relative to "normal". It would not be the fastest one. That's an interpretation that makes sense to me. I realize there's no a hard and fast rule and there is a certain amount of latitude in any such decision.

Rod

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B-maniac

06-21-2006 17:49:24

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Re: Boy I dread tonight! in reply to Jak, 06-21-2006 13:55:13

Don't know what size area you paint in,but a one car sized area with a 7000BTU window air conditioner will solve your problem. It cools and dehumidifies.Turn it off before you paint! Good Luck!

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souNdguy

06-21-2006 16:12:21

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Re: Boy I dread tonight! in reply to Jak, 06-21-2006 13:55:13

Though neither conditions are ideal.. i think I'd rather paint in the heat.. vs humidity. I just don't have good luck when it gets humid.. I usually clean up and just put everything away .. too hard to fight the environment when it gets like that.

Ideally I like to paint in 75-85 degrees, overcast.. or low sun, ever so slight breeze.. just enough to move the air.. and low humidity..

Of course.. i live in florida.. so i get that weather only about a handfull of times a year.. and then for only a few minutes each day!!!

Soundguy

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