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Oliver, Cletrac, Co-op & Cockshutt Tractors Discussion Forum
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Question for Brad (or anyone other engine builder)

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Kris

10-05-2003 04:15:18




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I would like to increase the power of my 880 gas tractor and wondered if there are some things I could do that wouldn't cost a ton of money. I've never had it apart so I'm assuming it has 3 3/4 pistons still in it. Do the 3 7/8 M&W high dome pistons make a big difference? The head is where I thought I could gain some power but I need some ideas on that.I was also wondering about a different cam. It would be nice to gain 10-15hp ....that's my goal anyway. I've been told that the 880 power units had different manifolds that made more power than the tractor engines...any truth to this? The 1800 series got a lot of power from the 265/283 and I was wondering why I could'nt get that from my engine and still look stock and run pump gas..... even if it has to be 94 octane. Any ideas appreciated!

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MICHELLE KOEBEL

10-07-2003 15:44:17




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 Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other engine buil in reply to Kris, 10-05-2003 04:15:18  
i need some specs. for my 550 cockshutt. i need the head bolt torque, and the rocker arm torque. i also need the wiring schematic for the voltage regulator. any help would be appreciated. thank you



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Brad

10-07-2003 17:15:32




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 Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other engine in reply to MICHELLE KOEBEL, 10-07-2003 15:44:17  
Is your 550 .Cockshutt a true .Cockshutt or a Oliver-Cockshutt (35-40 Hp. utility tractor usually painted all red)?



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MICHELLE KOEBEL

10-07-2003 17:23:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other eng in reply to Brad, 10-07-2003 17:15:32  
IT IS A TRUE COCKSHUT. THANK YOU.



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Brad

10-08-2003 14:37:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other in reply to MICHELLE KOEBEL, 10-07-2003 17:23:02  
I'm not up on the .Cockshutts very much, and I don't think I have any specs on them. I would suggest going to the bottom of the page and posting a new message on it. Maybe one of the .Cockshutt guys can help.



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Kris

10-06-2003 18:26:14




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 Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other engine buil in reply to Kris, 10-05-2003 04:15:18  
Thanks to all of you guys who responded (especially Brad who typed some long posts) ..I have some ideas to kick around now!



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Brad

10-05-2003 16:50:42




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 Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other engine buil in reply to Kris, 10-05-2003 04:15:18  
Kris, if all you want is 10-15 horsepower, I would go would go with the 3 7/8 flattop pistons, a 3 angle valve job and just clean the roughness out of the ports with a sanding roll. For your expected horsepower increase this would be sufficient. I gave all the other information because you asked.



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Brad

10-05-2003 14:19:21




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 Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other engine buil in reply to Kris, 10-05-2003 04:15:18  
It's pretty easy and reasonable to accomplish what you want to do. First off, I would stay away from the 3 7 /8 high dome. they are not what everyone makes them out to be. first off it blocks the flame travel across the comustion chamber, and when M&W put that dogturd on top of the piston they dropped the head of the piston down in the bore about 1/8 inch. this destroys something called "quench area" this is the flat part of the piston that comes very close to the flat part of the head. This does two things, it sends the air/fuel mixture through the combustion chamber at a high velocity, creating horsepower and it also enables you to run a lower octane gas by cooling the head of the piston on the end of the exhaust stroke as it comes very close to the water cooled head. the compression ratio on a 880 with high dome 3 7/8 pistons if I remember correctly is 8.5:1 the compression ratio on a 3 7/8 flattop is 8.4:1 not enough difference to justify the quench loss and flame travel disturbance. frankly, a 3 7/8 flattop with proper quench WILL make more power than a 3 7/8 high dome. with some good headwork and big valves and a good camshaft wou will do more than your expected 10-15 HP increase. this can be done without even taking the engine out of the tractor. as far as manifols go, take your 880 manifold, cut the legs off of it, smooth the inside up and weld it back together. the 880 and 1800A engines were compltely different, as someone already cleared up

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770

10-05-2003 16:20:10




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 Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other engine in reply to Brad, 10-05-2003 14:19:21  
you sold me my pistons.....



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Brad

10-05-2003 16:29:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other eng in reply to 770, 10-05-2003 16:20:10  
Two questions, 1 how long ago was it? and 2 Did you specifically talk to me or was it someone else in the parts dept?



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770

10-05-2003 17:40:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other in reply to Brad, 10-05-2003 16:29:26  
Brad, I didn't mean anything with that post. I'm a faithful customer. it was quite some time ago. Maybe 6 or 7 years. Those pistons really livened up my tractor. People at the local pulls are really suprised when I can take a super m or 88. I'm now building a similar engine for a 77 with the flat tops. From what you say, I can't wait to get this thing finished. Take care.



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Brad

10-05-2003 19:06:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone o in reply to 770, 10-05-2003 17:40:39  
Oh, I didn' take any sort of offense from it, I hope mine didn't come across that way. most of the parts guys at work aren't aware of that, so they would probably sell the high dome's. I just wondered when because I think I heard that M&W discontinued that kit a while ago and went to the flat top. (good thing, I wish they would do the same for the 88's, then they would also be able to sell it for a diesel)

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Ollie

10-05-2003 16:49:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other in reply to Brad, 10-05-2003 16:29:26  
Give it a rest Brad. I just cross Miabach off my list of possible vendors I give to Oliver owners.. Be sure to tell your boss why.



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Brad

10-05-2003 19:25:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone o in reply to Ollie, 10-05-2003 16:49:33  
I'll be sure to fill Dad in on all the details.



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Ollie

10-05-2003 15:45:13




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 Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other engine in reply to Brad, 10-05-2003 14:19:21  
Big valves, headwork, port & match, camshaft, etc. will eat up $2,000 - $2,500 pretty quickly. Very little gain for that kind of money.

Displacement and compression determine the power potential of any engine. Increasing breathing without adding inches and/or compression is basically meaningless on a low speed tractor engine. Might have some benefit on some car/truck engines with nail valves and small port heads but that's not the subject here.

I beleive Mr. Morrell said... "the 1800 engine was a revised 880 engine..." - 'revised' being the operative word.

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Brad

10-05-2003 16:27:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other eng in reply to Ollie, 10-05-2003 15:45:13  
One of my favorite examples of how "Cubic inches is not always the answer" is a oliver 77 engine I built for a customer quite some time ago. While I have not wittnessed it with my own eyes, I have been told by other pullers in his club that the little 331 cubic inch engine is the tractor to beat. It runs in a 10% over stock rpm class, has a good head, big valves, good manifold and carb, a good camshaft, a perfect rod ratio, and a flattop piston. he is currently walking all over the biggest farmall M engine you can buy, another guy parked his 440 inch 77 because he was fed up with getting beat, and is right on the heels of a JD G sporting almost 1000 cubic inches.Like I said this is what other people have told me, so don't hold me responsible for it. So, tell me again about displacement? and as far as compression goes, did you not listen to what I said about the dome on the piston? Yes, in some applications it works, this is not one of them. if he sent me his head , camshaft, and manifolds all in good condition, he would end up with a bill for about $1500. Since you obviously have no clue, camshafts do more than push the valves open. they open at a specific time for a specific amount of time. changing this correctly on a bone stock tractor makes more power, often using less fuel. If you have been a mechanical engineer since the 60's then I assume you are around at least 60 years old. The old school saying was "There is no replacement for displacement" when it comes to making more power with a small engine, You have no idea how incorrect this can be. Pay attention to the young kids, You might just learn something. most of the time the customer dosen't need a big engine, they need something that works well. Decide whether you think a 1800 engine is the same or revised when compared to a 880 so far you have stated both

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Ollie

10-05-2003 16:47:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other in reply to Brad, 10-05-2003 16:27:19  
Bye Brad, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about!



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jack

10-05-2003 19:10:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone o in reply to Ollie, 10-05-2003 16:47:40  
Ollie: i looked up "idiot" in the dictionary and there was your pic right below



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Ollie

10-06-2003 04:29:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyo in reply to jack, 10-05-2003 19:10:03  
Grow up jack!



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Ollie

10-05-2003 09:09:27




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 Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other engine buil in reply to Kris, 10-05-2003 04:15:18  
Great question!

Your 64hp 265ci 880 has the same engine as the 1800A with a 265ci rated at 80hp. How can this be?

Oliver simply rated the 1800A at a higher rpm. Because hp is a figure derived from the actual torque and rpm measured, this raises the calculated hp... hp = ((torque x rpm) / 5252)

There was nothing wrong or dishonest about this at all. In fact, Oliver was very careful to intentionally underrate their stated "certified hp". This way, no matter whose dyno was used and who was using it, their engines always measured at least the certified hp Oliver advertised.

I'd check the compression first to make sure the engine is healthy. Then give it a solid tune-up. Then dyno it. You might be pleasantly surprised!

If you want to throw parts at it, remember, anybody can sell you parts. I'd suggest you look for a local engine builder who has a great reputation and the equipment and skills required to correct modify/assemble your engine. For example, when adding dome pistons (like 770 said, this is a great way to add power in a low compression engine) the builder will ensure that the valves will never hit the piston domes. A mistake here can cost you an engine.

Also discuss costs with him. He got a good reputation by doing good work, not by being cheap.

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J. Schwiebert

10-05-2003 10:00:00




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 Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other engine in reply to Ollie, 10-05-2003 09:09:27  
Those two engines have the same bore and stroke, but after that there are major changes. The 1650-1655 gas are allso 265 cubic inch and are more common to the 880 than the 1800 A series.



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Ollie

10-05-2003 10:05:49




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 Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other eng in reply to J. Schwiebert, 10-05-2003 10:00:00  
Herb Morrell's book is the source of the rating information.

I quote... "The 1800 engine was a revised 800 engine...".

I suspect he would have known for sure!



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Oliver puller

10-05-2003 18:44:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other in reply to Ollie, 10-05-2003 10:05:49  
OLLIE you really are a DUMB A$$ !!!!! and to think someone would belive one word out of your know it all mouth!!! HA HA HA HA Ollie is a joke!!!! You know nothing about an Oliver except what you read from a book! I am sure now you dont even own an Oliver!!!!!



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Ollie

10-06-2003 04:30:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone o in reply to Oliver puller, 10-05-2003 18:44:18  
Grow up!



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J. Schwiebert

10-05-2003 13:08:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other in reply to Ollie, 10-05-2003 10:05:49  
The Super 88 engine was the base at which the design of the 1800 started from. That is true. Of course the Super 88 became the 880. There was also an ASAE paper by Herb that told how they continued on with it.



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David

10-05-2003 11:40:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other in reply to Ollie, 10-05-2003 10:05:49  
The 1800A engine only shared the same bore and stroke as the 880. The 1800 engine was new based on the research gained from the XO-121 engine. The 1800 had 7 main bearings compared to the 880 4 mains, a twelve port head and manifold compared to 9 ports, and a fully pressurized oiling system.



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Ollie

10-05-2003 10:07:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other in reply to Ollie, 10-05-2003 10:05:49  
Make that 880, not 800.



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Somebody

10-05-2003 19:17:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyone o in reply to Ollie, 10-05-2003 10:07:48  
Well i just sit here and continue to be amassed at all this arguing and trash talk, but on this one i just gotta step in and stick-up for Brad on this debate. I have built lots of 85 horse power 880s with 3 7/8 domes. They work all right, but the flat tops are better for the very reasons Brad explained. I found a set of 3 7/8 m&w flat-tops #ap-18-sd, out of a super 88 desiel i wrecked. Shaved 110 thou off a 1600 head, put 440 chrysler intakes and 390 ford exhaust valves in it,and a .320 cam with some good duration ect. on it and a 2% ofset on the cam gear. Add a MSD6A box, do some major porting and polishing, open the carb up and put some major weights on the governor and i have a 283 cubic inch motor that is putting out 100+ horse power.And i have a total of about 2500$ tied up in the entire engine. This engine runs 2400rpm HSNL, but it does all the hard work in the 14-1500 range were it wont say no. Never powered out 16.9-38s on 17 1/2 in. rims all summer.Out pulls jd r and 80s-all the time in 9500 runnin 3rd gear and even beat a 400+ cub farmall m in 9500. Not braggin at all, just stating that it can be done and Brad is right.

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Ollie

10-06-2003 04:51:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyo in reply to Somebody, 10-05-2003 19:17:51  
I'm happy for you but the original poster clearly was not in a position to do the work himself. The $2,500 you have in the engine obviously does not totally represent parts and shop labor charges.

While it's nice you feel the flat top pistons are "better", it all depends on the chamber design, quench area, dome design, compression, etc. I'll defer to the piston manufacturers who actually design and test them. As with every aspect of engine design and building, trade-offs exist. Compression always builds power, up to the limit of the fuel octane available. Real engine builders and piston manufacturers both realize that piston domes, whatever shortcomings they have (usually $$$), are far preferable to shaving decks and heads which usually results in shrouding problems, again depending upon all the factors mentioned earlier.

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DOES HE KNOW?????????????

10-06-2003 09:19:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or in reply to Ollie, 10-06-2003 04:51:32  
OLLIE I think you should leave the tractor pulling to someone who has done it! There is no book on how to build an Oliver pulling engine!!! It is clear, with your book experience ONLY that you are blowing smoke up are rears. So please go back to "quoteing" the Oliver manuals that you have memorized and keeping posting that 88 hp of 29!!!! Herbert Morrell's book has lots of mistakes so be prepared for the remarks when you quote it!!!!

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Friend of somebody above.

10-06-2003 08:40:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or in reply to Ollie, 10-06-2003 04:51:32  
I know the above $2500 tractor /engine builder and between him and father before him they forgot more than most will ever know on these engines/tractors. Helps when there is couple trailer loads of parts to pick from and get off the track he's a coming!



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Brad

10-05-2003 19:30:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Brad (or anyo in reply to Somebody, 10-05-2003 19:17:51  
Thank You.



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770

10-05-2003 07:07:52




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 Re: Question for Brad (or anyone other engine buil in reply to Kris, 10-05-2003 04:15:18  
This is just my OPINION. I put bigger pistons (domes) in my 770. Took .030 off the head and ported it also.....nothing major. On the dyno, went from 45 horse to almost 60. 10 - 15 horse is not that hard to attain. By the way, I got my pistons from brad....Just my OPINION, good luck.



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