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Oliver, Cletrac, Co-op & Cockshutt Tractors Discussion Forum
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Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or fuel related?

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DuaneWKKC

09-30-2003 06:18:41




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My 1966 1650 smokes a lite to dark gray colored smoke instead of black somke when worked, also starts hard in morning (any temp), are the two related or is the gray smoke from newer fuels.
(our s88 and 880 D sure new how to make black smoke)
Thanks for any help.

DuaneW.




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craig buss

12-11-2005 18:25:58




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 Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or fuel related? in reply to DuaneWKKC, 09-30-2003 06:18:41  
No deisel engine should produce black or gray smoke unless the engine is modified or something is wrong with it.



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Kent of SW MO

10-07-2003 11:44:45




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 Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or fuel related? in reply to DuaneWKKC, 09-30-2003 06:18:41  
Check your Injecter pump timing. I bet it need to be advanced.



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IanC

10-01-2003 18:43:11




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 Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or fuel related? in reply to DuaneWKKC, 09-30-2003 06:18:41  
There is a difference between on and off road fuel if you are dealing with a GOOD supplier. Both fuels have been through a process to remove sulfur compounds. This process also removes some of the lubrictiy from the fuel. GOOD fuel dealers use an additive to replace this, these contain dyes to let you know it's been done. BAD suppliers just dye the fuel. If you are going to use on road fuel you can use Lucas fuel conditioner which won't color the fuel, but puts the lubricity back. Our 7.3L Power Stroke shop truck was acting like it needed injectors, one tankfull with the Lucas cleaned it right up, so we started selling it.

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Ollie

10-01-2003 19:38:50




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 Re: Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or fuel relate in reply to IanC, 10-01-2003 18:43:11  
Don was right.

Federal law requires that tax-free dyed fuel be used off-road only. Clear fuel is used on-road and tax paid. If you use dyed fuel on-road you get a visit from the IRS. The fines are substantial.

Fuel suppliers can and do add additives primarily for weather conditions. This has nothing to do with fuel color, use, or taxes.



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IanC

10-02-2003 20:05:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or fuel re in reply to Ollie, 10-01-2003 19:38:50  
Please re-read my post. I told him to use the Lucas BECAUSE it doesn't color your ON ROAD fuel, and that putting DYE in it to identify it doesn't put the lubricity back in the fuel. Check Stanadyne's (Roosa Master) literature. They recommend an additive (theirs of course). I've witnessed my suplier adding the dye and additive package to my delivery because the "@#@$! idiot" at the bulk plant forgot to. And it isn't just the feds its your state too, thats why you have to do all that IFTA paperwork for your truck.

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Ollie

09-30-2003 06:55:12




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 Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or fuel related? in reply to DuaneWKKC, 09-30-2003 06:18:41  
Black smoke and gray smoke both mean that not all the fuel is being burned and have the same causes:

1) Bad injector(s) and/or injector pump
2) Wrong timing
3) Dirty air filter
4) Wrong fuel
5) Overheating

The fact that it's hard to start when cold along with the smoke tells me to tells me to look at the possible causes in the order listed.

Note that some black/gray smoke is normal when the engine is accelerating.

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RAB

09-30-2003 08:21:44




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 Re: Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or fuel relate in reply to Ollie, 09-30-2003 06:55:12  
On a value for money rating,I would check some of the others before getting the pump looked at ie move the pump further down the list.
Regards, RAB



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DuaneWKKC

09-30-2003 07:06:30




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 Re: Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or fuel relate in reply to Ollie, 09-30-2003 06:55:12  
Hey Ollie, thanks for response and yea i do have both manuals..LOL.
Was asking because the 880 I beleive had virtually the same motor a this model 1650 and the one we had sure knew how to black smoke when loaded. This tractor makes no smoke at idle or under light load, but when loaded the smoke is just not as dark. have been told that the injectors are probably the reason for hard starting cold because it does puff smoke when cranking. Not sure if that is true or not? Oh yea, forgot to mention, I do have to run road fuel as I have noot found and outlet for off-road fuel and I dont burn enough to get a tank. (this is a toy)

as for other items.. cooling Ok, air filter has less than 50 hrs on it, running road fuel, other Items unknow.

thanks again, duane.

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Don-WI

09-30-2003 20:34:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or fuel re in reply to DuaneWKKC, 09-30-2003 07:06:30  
My little bit of input- only difference between road and off-road fuel is #1-the price(taxes) and #2- the color. They put red dye in off road to catch truckers at weigh stations and wherever else to see if they were cheating. The trucking/excavating company right behind me got caught by an inside investigator that worked their, had to pay a rather large price for it too. He had it in every truck he ran!!
Donovan from Wisconsin

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Ollie

09-30-2003 07:52:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or fuel re in reply to DuaneWKKC, 09-30-2003 07:06:30  
The 1650 is running "more correctly". Proper diesel operation is to belch a little smoke under load but not smoke under light load or at idle. The darker the smoke the more unburned fuel is left behind in the combustion chamber. This is a bad thing.

Like I said, check the injectors and pump first as they are the most likely cause of your hard starting problem. I'm assuming that the starting system (batteries, cables, terminals, connections, etc.) is 100%. Diesels require the specified rotational speed by the starter. This gets more true as the temperature gets colder. They are far more fussy in this area than gas engines.

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J. Schwiebert

09-30-2003 09:22:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or fue in reply to Ollie, 09-30-2003 07:52:45  
O.K. Your defination of grey smoke and mine might be a little different. First thing, Take the exhaust manifold off and start the engine. See which ports emit the grey smoke. If just a few find one that does not and one that does. Switch the injectors on those two cylinders. If the smoke stays with the injector, then you should get them checked. If the smoke stays with the cylinder, you have a compression problem. If you do anything with the pump check the timing and the transfer pump pressure. Do not know what you do with the tractor, but does not sound like you farm with it. It is a heat engine, compression must be good, as well as the fuel system. You do not want a gear reduction starter, you want it to spin faster. Other questions send me a U2U on the Hart/Parr Oliver web site and I will talk to you. I guess with a few years of experience on 1650's I have found that compression is more of a problem than the fuel system, but each case is different. How good is the thermostat? How long does it take the engine to get to the middle of normal on the temp gauge? Grey smoke is unburned fuel, but it takes heat to ignite it properly

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1650Oliver

09-30-2003 17:17:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or in reply to J. Schwiebert, 09-30-2003 09:22:05  
I agree. In my experience with 1600-1655's, compression seemed to be more the culprit of full-time hard starting than anything. Tried pump rebuilds and was a expensive way to not solve the problem. Most of the 1650-1655 had very good and reliable injection pumps. I did find once with my 1600 the air filter made a huge difference. Whatever the problem, they are all worth fixing.



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DuaneWKKC

09-30-2003 09:06:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or fue in reply to Ollie, 09-30-2003 07:52:45  
Plan on getting the injectors rebuilt this fall, thinking about putting a gear reduction starter on like the S88 with maxed out motors. Batteries are fairly new (1.5 yrs) JD Combine batteries and all new cables. Still cranks kinda slow to me.

Thanks for all the info.

DuaneW.



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Brian

10-05-2003 14:31:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gray Diesel smoke a Symptom or in reply to DuaneWKKC, 09-30-2003 09:06:33  
Have you been having to add to the radiator? Coolant being burned in the cylinder will be a light gray also. If it were me, I would start at the bottom of Ollie's list and work up. Pumps and injectors are expensive. Air filters, thermostats, loose belts, and cleaning chaff from the radiator are cheap.



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