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Oliver, Cletrac, Co-op & Cockshutt Tractors Discussion Forum
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OLLIE!! need help!!

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ChadS

09-17-2003 07:44:52




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Dear Ollie, My freind has a oliver 77 puller that has some carb problems, it is the original shebler carb. When the tractor lugs down, the carb floods over, The is an electric fuel pump on it, Could the pump be over pressuizing the needle valve and flooding the carb?? What other carbs could be used for the 77?? I enjoy reading your posts here on the oliver board, How did you learn all that great knowledge?? Respectfully, from the pulling board, Chads

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Ollie

09-17-2003 09:11:45




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 Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to ChadS, 09-17-2003 07:44:52  
Yes, you are correct! Marvel-Schebler carburetors are intended to be gravity feed only. The float needle is easily pushed off it's seat by the pressure of an electric pump. Some pumps are adjustable and you can always try an adjustable fuel pressure regulator but neither is the right way to go about it.

Some times people think that getting more fuel to the carburetor will increase power. This is not the case. The engine demands the fuel/air mixture based on engine vacuum. Using a larger carburetor will not help either; in fact, it might kill low-end torque and throttle response.

The secret to making more power is to make matched modifications. For example; if you increase displacement, you'll need larger valves and more cam lift and duration. To increase breathing to match these modifications, you'll want a larger manifold (or at least a port matched head/manifold) and then the larger carburetor to meet the increase fuel/air demand.

Thanks for the compliment. I'm an old geezer who's been working on cars, trucks, and tractors since 1960.

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TimC,another question

09-17-2003 19:29:59




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 Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to Ollie, 09-17-2003 09:11:45  
What would you do given this situation.

600 cubic inches turning maybe 3000 rpm, 2.300 intake valves, over 13 to one compression, headers, over 500 lift, Big Zenith carb that should flow 400 cfm or more. Motor leans down at 2 grand with 5 psi pressure. Loads up bad with 7 to 9 pounds psi. Am sure it is pushing needle off seat because it will flood the carb vent hole running the fuel pump before starting.

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A.P.

09-18-2003 17:05:55




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 Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to TimC,another question, 09-17-2003 19:29:59  
Tim can you tell me a bit more about how the fuel system is plumbed? I may have an idea for you. Email me at home or call me and we'll talk. If you don't have my phone/email post here and I'll email you when I find yours.

Take care,
A.P.
SE Michigan



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Ollie

09-18-2003 05:33:56




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 Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to TimC,another question, 09-17-2003 19:29:59  
I'd do two things.

1) I'd lose the pump as the excess gas can wash the oil off the rings/walls. Use large fuel line, a non-restrictive inline filter, and keep everything 6" or more from the exhaust manifold.

2) Based on the "cfm formula", your carb is way too small. That's why it lays down at 2,000 rpm.

As long as you promise to share with your buddies, here goes:

Formula:
(((CID x.5) x RPM) / 1728) x VE x MF = CFM rating.

Where:
CID = engine displacement
RPM = max operational RPM
Then use:
VE (Volumetric Efficiency) = .8
MF (Manifold Factor) = 1.5
VE and MF are approximations many engine builders use. They assume an engine with slightly better than stock breathing.

I did the math and it tells me you'll need a 625 cfm carb to feed 600 ci at 3,000 rpm.

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ATHYRIO

09-18-2003 07:47:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to Ollie, 09-18-2003 05:33:56  
Your formula for air flow is right BUT you're missing the boat on the VE (Volumetric Efficiency) = .8
A 6 cylinder motor with 3 intake ports, and an undersized manifold will never get 80% volumetric efficiency. You would be lucky to get 50% at 3000 rpms.



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Ollie

09-18-2003 08:21:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to ATHYRIO, 09-18-2003 07:47:38  
You may well be right. VE and MF are approximations and can be adjusted based on the engine builders experience with specific engines and combinations.

Remember, VE is concerned only with intake charge density. MF is designed to compensate for various intake manifold designs which have greatly different flow characteristics.

Any carb cfm calculation is an educated guess to get you in the ballpark. Dyno pulls with an exhaust gas analyzer are required to get optimum sizing for maximum performance but this can get real pricey real fast.

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OTHYRIO

09-18-2003 09:33:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to Ollie, 09-18-2003 08:21:36  
You check to see if you carb is big enough with a dyno and a vacuum gauge.



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Ollie

09-18-2003 10:25:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to OTHYRIO, 09-18-2003 09:33:11  
You can if you don't have an EGA but the EGA is the only way to tell for sure. I use a vacuum gauge all the time but at full throttle, high rpm, they tell you nothing. They are great for idle jetting and timing, assuming you have a baseline, though.



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ATHYRIO

09-18-2003 10:42:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help! in reply to Ollie, 09-18-2003 10:25:55  
Are you a ChASSds brothers? How can an EGA tell you if you carb will not flow enough? Can you have the fuel to air ratio adjusted right on a carb that is short on flow?
Take a carb from a 66 and put it on a 88. You can adjust the fuel to get any ERG reading you want and the carb is still to small.
Maybe if you two fools could quite tring to impress everybody, you might learn something.



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Ollie

09-18-2003 11:31:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need h in reply to ATHYRIO, 09-18-2003 10:42:02  
Your name calling reveals you to be a punk. Go away!



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ChadS

09-18-2003 11:42:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! ne in reply to Ollie, 09-18-2003 11:31:41  
Everyone, meet Athyrio. My number 1 fan in the pulling board. We have had some bad posts to each other, I would like to change this, but may be fighting a losing battle. I belive he has something to offer, just aint showed it yet. Come on Athyrio, show us what you know, I will make you a deal, If you start showing us your knowledge about engines, or what ever, I will quit posting my comments, and advice. But, untill then, you are stuck with me. Come on now, Athyrio, show us what only you can teach us!!! You obviously have knowledge, just change the way you express it. Deal is on the table, lets end this once and for all. Here and now. ChadS

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ChadS

09-18-2003 11:27:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need h in reply to ATHYRIO, 09-18-2003 10:42:02  
You are right, no not related though. But like you told me, give some details on how you can tell if the carb is too small. I am not out to judge you or criticize you, I don't know it all. Instead of insults, lets hear some info!! Teach us!! That is why we are asking for your knowledge. I must say, you are not stupid, I read some of your posts, some were right on the money. I want to learn as much as the rest of us. Call it verbal masterb????. if you like, but if you are willing to teach us something, Wouldn't it make you feel great if you helped someone?? With all due respect, Chads

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Ollie

09-18-2003 11:50:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! ne in reply to ChadS, 09-18-2003 11:27:17  
Chad, it's really very simple. Let's see if I can explain it.

Otto cycle engines (we call them gas engines) are just large vacuum pumps. As the piston moves down in the cylinder, it creates a negative pressure (vacuum) the draws air past the carburetor's venturi. The gas is then drawn out of the float bowl, through the jets, by the vacuum. Therefore, the stronger the vacuum signal at idle, the better the engine's throttle response is. It will also tend to make more torque at low rpm. A vacuum gauge is essential to get this (and base timing) right. The reason it that the throttle is always the greatest restriction in the intake path at idle.

The reason that a vacuum gauge won't help at full throttle is that the manifold, heads, valves are usually the greastest restriction at WOT. This is the point that many people don't understand... putting a larger carburetor on any engine, without changing anything else, will almost always result in lower idle vacuum, poor idle quality, lousy throttle response, less low-rpm torque, and poor fuel economy. High speed power might increase slightly (and it might not), assuming the carburetor is jetted correctly. If not jetted correctly, power will be much less and you might get real lucky and burn pistons. This is why an EGA is so helpful.

Remember, engine building and tuning is all about matching components. The correct approach is to make modest improvements to displacement, cam lift and duration, valve size, head ports, intake manifold runners, carburetors, and exhaust. Assuming these components are matched, the result will always be a serious torque and horsepower increase. On the contrary, changing any one of them without the others will almost always result in torque and horespower decreases.

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ATHURIO

09-18-2003 12:15:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE! in reply to Ollie, 09-18-2003 11:50:42  
Maybe to two should get together. ChASSd has a POS H that he think has 130hp. Ollie thinks a stock 88 has 16hp. The only thing Ollie can do is quote from a book. The olny book ChASSd has is comic book. You two make the prefect pair.



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ChadS

09-18-2003 12:24:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OL in reply to ATHURIO, 09-18-2003 12:15:51  
OK, talk about comic books, what kind of name is Athyrio anyway??



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ChadS

09-18-2003 12:13:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE! in reply to Ollie, 09-18-2003 11:50:42  
Thank you, Ollie. You wisdom has taught me something today. I dyno tune Antique pulling tractors. I know how to build carbs etc, But it is the science technology, (like what you posted) is what makes this board so facinating!! You knowlege of Engines, and Oliver tractors is is astounding!!! I am 28 yr old, I have been working on cars, truck and tractors since I was 10, Learned alot, over that period of time. I do things a bit less scientific. I look at plug colors, Compression pressure, fuel quality and delivery. I have used my dyno, to teach me the signs on where the power is hiding. Each time I tune a tractor, the first thing I do is head for the carb. I have found 5-9 more hp @ 540 in most tractors, just by the carb alone, 15-20 hp more lugging power as well. I know that these numbers are just meaningless numbers. To an uneducated person, but like yourself, you know what to do when you work on something. I have had a few olivers my self, a super77 and a super99 with the GM supercharged diesil. I did not have the 99 long, but I do know where there is an old 80 or 90 sitting in a barn. It is a large tractor, it looks like the 70 oliver ,it has a wide front and I think it has smaller rear tires, not 38's, maybe 28's??? It has a 6 cyl engine, but like I said, it is more like a wheatland tractor. I could buy it for around $1000. Can you tell me what this tractor may be, and what it is worth? Thanks, with all due repsect, Chads

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Ollie

09-18-2003 13:40:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OL in reply to ChadS, 09-18-2003 12:13:27  
If you can post a picture or the serial # of that tractor there are folks here who can id it for you in a minute. I'm guessing an 88 but I'm not an expert.

Chad, the only difference between you and I is that I've been doing this for 43 years. When you get to my age you'll know more about tuning old tractors than I ever did. I learned most of what I know doing exactly what you do, teaching myself on the job.

Make no mistake, book learning comes in real handy, but all it does is get you in the ballpark. You still have to do exactly what you do, read plugs, do compression tests, etc. Keep up the good work!

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ChadS

09-18-2003 09:49:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to OTHYRIO, 09-18-2003 09:33:11  
Would the vaccum reading be too high and pulling too much fuel through the venturi if the carb is too small?? ChadS



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ChadS

09-17-2003 09:59:30




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 Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to Ollie, 09-17-2003 09:11:45  
Thank You kindly for you wisdom. I will pass that info on to my freind. The 77 has a 4 inch bore and a 5-3/4 stroke, it has about 210psi, a basicly stock head. and electronic ignition. It has a mild camshaft in it also. Is there any other carbs that may work on the 77 without having to change much?? Thanks, Chads



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Ollie

09-18-2003 04:56:50




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 Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to ChadS, 09-17-2003 09:59:30  
With the stock head and manifold a larger carburetor won't help. You might want to ask the other pullers to see if a manifold from a larger engine fits. Then you could port match it to the head and bolt up the carb the larger engine used.



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ajax implement

09-17-2003 12:14:46




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 Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to ChadS, 09-17-2003 09:59:30  
What all did you have to grind away to clear that length stroke. What rods are you using Did you reinforce the mains. Why not alter the head? s this a Fleetline or Super or 1550 Head/



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ChadS

09-17-2003 15:21:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to ajax implement, 09-17-2003 12:14:46  
Hi, to the best of my knowledge, it has continental rods, and ford pistons. I did not build the engine, but have seen it with the head off. Our club will not allow the 12 port heads in the mod classes, must be stock in appearence, but can use the whole engine in the tractor, as long as it bolts in without changing the motor mount locations. It is a 77 head, stock valves, port matched. Runs good, but has carb trouble. ChadS

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770

09-18-2003 14:10:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OLLIE!! need help!! in reply to ChadS, 09-17-2003 15:21:05  
on my 77 I run a tsx 755, slightly larger venturi (which is probalby unnecessary). I have a larger needle and seat on it. No main jet, took that out. LARGE fuel line, big filter, and EVERY fitting in the system is opened up. Little head work, little piston work = 70 horse on the dyno. Large valves only help with lots of rpm's and longer, taller cam. Hope this helps....



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