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Oliver, Cletrac, Co-op & Cockshutt Tractors Discussion Forum
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Oliver 550 engine problem

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J alverson

07-28-2003 14:39:46




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I am having difficulty with my 550. Original problem started with engine stumble after 2-3 hours operation.It is now down to couple minutes operation and then engine stumble -then pick up and then stumble and eventual cycle where engines dies. Here is what has been done -new points ,condensor,rotor,Dist cap,fuel filter,gas change,new gas filter, carburetor rebuild.Engine purrs until this begins. I think gas problem but am at a loss.

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RAB

07-30-2003 02:00:02




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 Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to J alverson, 07-28-2003 14:39:46  
Yet another suggestion, not knowing in which order any of your checks/changes have been made.
Have you checked that the carb gasket is not just fouling the float - enough to mess things up but little enough that it comes free as engine splutters and stops. Not a likely scenario and doesn't really fit the symptoms too well, but...
This may be one to check IF it's not an ignition problem.
Regards, RAB

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j alverson

07-30-2003 06:01:30




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 Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to RAB, 07-30-2003 02:00:02  
I am going back there one more time.



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Frank

07-29-2003 12:58:04




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 Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to J alverson, 07-28-2003 14:39:46  
Sure sounds like a fuel problem, but the only thing you haven�t mentioned changing is the ballast resister (if it has one) on the coil. Maybe it's overheating. They normally just go completely, but you never know.



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j alverson

07-30-2003 06:04:17




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 Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to Frank, 07-29-2003 12:58:04  
the coil has been changed --is this resistor an external part -I did not see this component on coil when changed.



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Frank

07-30-2003 08:03:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to j alverson, 07-30-2003 06:04:17  
Someone may have replaced the original coil with an internal resistor model (12V coil). If you put on a new 6 volt coil and no external resistor you may be burning out your points. This all assumes you are running a 12 volt system. If it is running 12v you must ether have a 12v coil (internal resistor) or use an external ballast resistor. Go to a parts place and ask for one for a crysler, most places have them in stock.

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RAB

07-29-2003 12:37:00




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 Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to J alverson, 07-28-2003 14:39:46  
A few other thoughts.
You don't say whether engine sounds choked or not when it dies. Does it black smoke before stopping? Have you tried it with air cleaner disconnnected? Do you know anyone with an oscilloscope?, as you could then check out the ignition very easily. I still have one of those 'see thru' plugs to see whether fuel mixture is OK. One of those would show if it's going lean, rich or not changing.
Can you start it up right away after it stops or do you need to wait a while. If so, how long? Is there a spark during this time?
You must be able to tie down this problem to one area. Does it behave the same whether loaded, idling or fast idling? All little pointers to the problem, which we are not aware of. So makes it difficult to diagnose from a distance.
Regards, RAB

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j alverson

07-30-2003 06:12:26




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 Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to RAB, 07-29-2003 12:37:00  
Last night ,I installed new points and condensor(2nd set)-the points with 5hrs operation looked awful-these points were bought at a farm supply store-new points were from NAPA and appear to be heavier duty. After installation, Tractor started and ran like a dream. I went to pasture and mowed about 15 minutes and engine started to stumble and finally died . I was able to restart and get back to barn after about 3 dies.I will have to run all of the fuel checks again since I might have had defective points influencing all of this.I appreciate your interest and thoughts.

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Ollie

07-30-2003 12:12:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to j alverson, 07-30-2003 06:12:26  
If the new point set is burned, you have the wrong coil. That's all it can be.



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RAB

07-29-2003 01:47:11




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 Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to J alverson, 07-28-2003 14:39:46  
If you have a drain on the carb, use it when the engine dies. If fuel runs out at full normal rate (for much more time than it would to just drain the carb), then it is probably not a fuel supply problem to the carb. If it is slow, or slows, you know you have a problem between the fuel tank and carb float bowl. A very easy check to carry out (with appropriate fire precautions).
Can't understand why everyone with a problem like this hasn't checked this before spending any money changing perfectly good parts in a blind attempt at repair.
Regards, RAB

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j alverson

07-29-2003 05:55:32




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 Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to RAB, 07-29-2003 01:47:11  
Not this -been checked



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RAB

07-29-2003 12:10:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to j alverson, 07-29-2003 05:55:32  
Then probably not fuel, unless carb rebuild missed something. Try another carb?
So now try the ignition side. Does the spark (or lack of it) cause the engine to stop?
Easy to check with engine only running 2-3 minutes at a time. For instance run one plug lead to a spare plug and watch to see if the spark goes erratic/stops as the engine dies, or any change in colour of the spark. Or use a zenon timing light to check. Could also put a 'button' in the coil HT lead and watch spark jumping the gap across the button (for all the plugs at once) to see if lack of spark is cause of stoppages. As it looks like you only have the coil left to change....it sounds likely that's the problem. If you still have a very healthy spark as the engine dies.... go to fuel side and check everything again!!!
Regards, RAB

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j alverson

07-29-2003 15:06:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to RAB, 07-29-2003 12:10:05  
Our minds are on the same track-I have one of those buttons (this reminded me of it). I talked to another mechanic and he convinced me to try another set of points and condensor(coil has been changed). Reflecting ,These were first items changed were those and I got about 5 hrs of good run time -but just could not bring myself to think that one of those components may have failed.Thanks for your response -will post something if this ever gets fixed.

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jake

07-30-2003 07:31:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to j alverson, 07-29-2003 15:06:20  
One thing that hasn't been brought up is this a 6V or 12V conversion, putting 12V through a 6V coil will burn points in a hurry. If it is a 12V system a coil with an internal resistor will cure the problem. Just another possibility.



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ajax implement

08-01-2003 16:48:49




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to jake, 07-30-2003 07:31:44  
Do you have the correct polarity on the coil?



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Delbert

07-28-2003 18:52:58




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 Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to J alverson, 07-28-2003 14:39:46  
Could be the coil, after a while the coil may be getting hot and breaking down. After it cools the engine will run till the coil gets hot again. Just a thought. Delbert



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j alverson

07-29-2003 05:56:29




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 Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to Delbert, 07-28-2003 18:52:58  
not this-been changed



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Darryl Polak

07-28-2003 17:35:34




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 Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to J alverson, 07-28-2003 14:39:46  
centrifugal weights and springs in distributor



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j alverson

07-29-2003 05:57:29




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 Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to Darryl Polak, 07-28-2003 17:35:34  
Not checked- does this mean new distributor?



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Doug

07-28-2003 16:57:22




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 Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to J alverson, 07-28-2003 14:39:46  
Have you removed the sediment bowl? There's a screen filter in the gas tank above the sediment bowl and also clean the inside of the gas tank. I had a similar problem a couple of years ago and I was amazed at the guck that came out of the gas tank.



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j alverson

07-29-2003 05:58:16




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 Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to Doug, 07-28-2003 16:57:22  
not this -been checked



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Ollie

07-28-2003 16:06:01




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 Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to J alverson, 07-28-2003 14:39:46  
Next time it happens, immediatley remove the gas cap. If it starts and runs OK without it, the vent in the cap is plugged and needs cleaning (B12 Chemtool).

If not, replace the ignition coil.



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j alverson

07-29-2003 06:10:27




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 Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to Ollie, 07-28-2003 16:06:01  
All checked-coil changed.



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Don

07-28-2003 15:42:56




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 Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to J alverson, 07-28-2003 14:39:46  
will it run with the choke on? have you check for vacum leaks, also watch the govener linkage,



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j alverson

07-29-2003 06:01:49




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 Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to Don, 07-28-2003 15:42:56  
Choke will not help- I am going to pursue vacuum leak-that could only be Intakew manifold gasket or cracked intake manifold. One gentleman said to look at distributor which is interesting thought.



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Myron KY

07-29-2003 06:31:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to j alverson, 07-29-2003 06:01:49  
I've read where people spray WD40 around the intake gasket, with engine running, to check for leaks. If the engine smoothes out, there's your leak. I've never done it but it sounds easy enough.

Just a thought.



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j alverson

07-29-2003 06:37:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to Myron KY, 07-29-2003 06:31:58  
I will try anything-thanks.



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Clint

07-29-2003 11:50:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to j alverson, 07-29-2003 06:37:18  
Tell us more history of how this all came about. Did the 550 work fine last year and now this, did you just buy it and you're trying to get it running, etc.? More info of the past and more history of the present is needed also.

How and who rebuilt the carb, did you pull the sediment bowl off the bottom of the gas tank and throughly clean it up? stuff like that.

I think we can get you going but it sometime helps to hear just a little more of something and some detail with it.

The problem you described sounds like what happens when I have my tractor idling and I shut off the fuel at the sediment bowl. The tractor runs for a couple of minutes then sputters, revs some and then dies out from lack of gas.

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J alverson

07-29-2003 14:36:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine problem in reply to Clint, 07-29-2003 11:50:25  
I have had tractor for 15 years.Checked sediment bowl -even attached another gas can and let it feed carburetor. I rebuilt carb-have done before and this is simple carb-don't think it is rebuild job because tractor purrs for a few minutes. I talked to another mechanic and he convinced me to try another set of points and condensor(will do tonight). I did get about 5hrs of quality run time when I did this -just could not believe these components went bad in that length of time.The coil has also been changed.I appreciate your response and I will listen to anything.

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Scott

08-03-2003 16:31:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine prob in reply to J alverson, 07-29-2003 14:36:01  
I had a similar problem that I was certain was ignition but wasn't. It turned out to be the rubber fuel line. When the tractor got good and hot the rubber would soften and collapse, starving the carb for gas. A steel fuel line finally eliminated the problem after changing all the ignition components for nothing. Also, check your gas cap for venting. Good luck



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Ollie

07-29-2003 15:12:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine prob in reply to J alverson, 07-29-2003 14:36:01  
Maybe we are getting somewhere. If you used the wrong coil you will roast the points in 5 hours or less. Coils are marked "for use with external resistor" or "for use without external resistor". They cannot be interchanged.



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j alverson

07-30-2003 06:16:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine in reply to Ollie, 07-29-2003 15:12:10  
I used a standard off the shelf 12 v coil-there was no external resistor but the coil that I took off had no resistor. I can just go to NAPA and ask for 550 oliver coil and should get right one-yes or no?



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Ollie

07-30-2003 06:40:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 eng in reply to j alverson, 07-30-2003 06:16:50  
NO! It's a common misconception that coils for use with an external resistor will have the resistor attached to or near the coil. Without a wiring diagram for your tractor I can't say for sure but on some Olivers, like my 1650G, the resistor is actually a shunt buried in the wiring harness under the right side floorboard.

Also, all the coils sold by NAPA are marked as I previously stated... there is no "standard off-the-shelf" coil.

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j alverson

07-31-2003 15:49:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 in reply to Ollie, 07-30-2003 06:40:34  
Ollie : Your comments and knowledge are giving me some lessons. I don't think I can get awiring diagram -so what do you think I should do ?I don't mind buying another coil but have some concern that the ballast resistor may be needed and I am still in a pickle until I dfeal with that issue. Someone advised getting a coil for a chrysler-does that make any sense?



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RAB

07-31-2003 16:56:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver in reply to j alverson, 07-31-2003 15:49:59  
More confusing information (which may not be necessary).
The Coil.
If it were 6 volts then a 6 volt coil would be fitted.Period.


AS it's 12 volts, there are two alternatives really.

One is basically a '6 volt' or 'ballast resistor coil' with a ballast resistor in the circuit. The ballast resistor is to soak up, say, 6 volts (or there abouts) so there is (about)6 to 8 volts on the coil and 6 volts on the resistor when running. So they will be in series connection. When starting (and battery volts are being pulled down by the starter) the ballast resistor is short circuited (bypassed) so the full battery voltage goes across the coil and you get a better starting spark. As soon as the starter stops, the short circuit is broken and it reverts to feeding via the resistor.

The other option is a simple 12 volt coil with no ballast resistor and this one is designed to take the full 12 volts all the time and give a good enough spark at start up.

Modern spark ignition engines (before latest electronic systems) nearly always went for the ballast resistor type, due to smaller & cheaper battery, smaller & cheaper starter (slower cranking?) and longer life, cheaper coil (doesn't have to be built for extra starting energy).

So that is why a ballast resistor coil with no resistor is bad news. It will draw about twice the current (gives a super spark for starting), but inevitably will overheat itself and also burn the points (due to the high current at closure and high energy sparking at opening).

Follow coil supply wire back and see if it has two connections, one fed from the ignition switch, via the resistor, and one from the starter relay feed, to after the resistor.
A single feed from the ignition switch will generally indicate a simple 12 volt coil. Alternatively, disconnect the power lead at the starter, and then check the volts, across the coil supply and earth, with the key in 'run' position and then 'start' position, making sure the points are closed for the test. No change means simple coil; higher reading on 'start' position indicates there is a ballast resistor fitted.
Hope this helps.
Regards, RAB

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Ollie

07-31-2003 16:52:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver in reply to j alverson, 07-31-2003 15:49:59  
I'm assuming the newest set of points are now toast after 15 minutes. If that's the case, here's what I'd do.

Get a coil at NAPA that says "for use WITHOUT an external resistor". Get a new set of ventilated points while you're there. Run a #10 wire from the "+" side of the coil to the "I" terminal of the ignition switch. Remove any other wire from the "+" side of the coil but leave any other wire that's connected to the "I" terminal of the ignition switch. This will bypass any shunt.

This is exactly what I did to my 1650G when the shunt burned in my harness. I took the opportunity to rewire the entire tractor but you certainly don't have to. That was 5-6 years ago and the same points and coil are still in it.

You may want to look for the "I&T" Shop Service manual. Don't know if one is available for your tractor but the one for mine has excellent wiring diagrams in it.

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j alverson

08-01-2003 06:57:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ol in reply to Ollie, 07-31-2003 16:52:11  
I am heading in that direction-will keep you posted -thanks for your help.



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ajax implement

08-01-2003 16:55:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re in reply to j alverson, 08-01-2003 06:57:17  
Who, wait a minute here. If you are using the generator and the positive gorund you need to hook up the coil the OTHER way. plus terminal wire to distributor. Put a volt meter on this terminal and see what you are getting once the engine has warmed up. Ajax.



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RAB

07-30-2003 01:48:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 engine in reply to Ollie, 07-29-2003 15:12:10  
Agree, but it may possibly be the coil that is toasted. If it was burned points that stop the engine it would generally need the points cleaning up before restarting ie. no spark after stopping. But if the coil is overheating, there may be a joint expanding apart internally - still no spark when it stops, but returning when cooled, should be an obvious pointer.
Regards, RAB



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Ollie

07-30-2003 05:18:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver 550 eng in reply to RAB, 07-30-2003 01:48:24  
I agree. In my earlier post I suggested a bad coil but he replied that it had been replaced.



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