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Oliver buffs: Is a Super 99 GM diesel supercharged??

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Steven

09-28-2001 20:21:31




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I swear the box that says GM on it is a supercharger and a friend of mine who has Olivers says they weren't. SO, what is the TRUTH? Supercharged or not?

Thanks!

Steven




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Carl

10-01-2004 14:01:12




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 Re: Oliver buffs: Is a Super 99 GM diesel superch in reply to Steven, 09-28-2001 20:21:31  
GM 2 cycle diesels are not supercharged unless they have a turbocharger. The roots blower is for exhaust scavenging only. EMD 2 cycle turbocharged diesels did away with the roots blower by using a gear drive and one way clutch on the turbocharger. To achieve exhaust scavenging, the turbo was gear driven at low load, low rpm, throttle settings. When the load and rpm reached a high enough level the exhaust turbine would take over the drive of the turbo, and the one way clutch would over ride the gear drive.

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dave2_85

09-30-2001 14:13:18




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 Re: Oliver buffs: Is a Super 99 GM diesel supercharged?? in reply to Steven, 09-28-2001 20:21:31  
The Detroit is a mechanically scavenged two-stroke engine. The blower is the means by which Nope. The exhaust gases are removed from the cylinder and fresh air inducted at essentially atmospheric pressure. By definition, a supercharger boosts the air pressure in the cylinder over atmospheric. If a Detroit is supercharged, a turbo-supercharger is added to boost the amount of air in the cylinder and hence the fuel that can be burned to increase the HP rating. But that standard Detroit is mechanically scavenged and not supercharged.

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DrCyKosis

09-30-2001 07:46:12




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 Re: Oliver buffs: Is a Super 99 GM diesel supercharged?? in reply to Steven, 09-28-2001 20:21:31  
You bet its supercharged. By deffinition any mechanical means of gathering and force feeding air to an engine besides piston movement is supercharging.

The person below who said the supercharger was belt driven on the Detroit (GM) engines is wrong. They are driven off the accessory drive. When these "blowers" are adapted to gas engines they are usually belt driven althogh many years ago they were also positioned in tront of the engine and hooked directly to tht crank.

There are currently 5 types of superchargers. All superchargers are a form of one of the basic 5 types.

1) Roots type. These are what originally came out on the GM Detroit Diesel engines and made famous later by the Fuel (Nitro Methane) guys in the 60's. These are what dominate NHRA alcohol and nitro classes and are also widely used in monster trucks and tractor pulling. A variation of the roots blower is the screw type suprcharger like the PSI.

2) Centrifugal. These are best known from the Turbocharger which uses the remaining energy in exhaust gasses to drive a turbine wheel which is connected to a compressor wheel. The great advantage to the turbo is that it is non parasitic (draws no horsepower from the engine to drive it) and by being able to freewheel at speeds over 100,000 rpm it can have an exponential output. Another type of centrifugal super charger is the Paxton Mc Cullough which is a compressor wheel belt driven from the crank and geared up to great speed. These PMcC's were made famous by the 57 T'birds that Ford factory installed PMcC's on a few 312's.

3)Vane. These were basically drums with slots containing sliding vanes and placed in an eccentric. They were only used in low hp applications and suffered from a dire case of heat build up.

4)Axial Flow. Strange one. Basically the compressor section of a jet engine that is belt driven off the crank. Very rare, expensive, and difficult to adapt to an engine. But they say the sound alone is worth all the trouble and expense.

5) Comprex Pressure Wave Supercharger. Developed in the 70's by Brown & Boveri in Europe for use on diesel engines. Uses pulses from the exhaust to directly push air to the cylinders. Although it is belt driven it is basically non parasitic as the belt is used only to keep the unit in time with the engine. The output is close to being on par with a turbo but actually has a little more bottom end torque but gives up a little on the top end. The unit isn't widely used because of its cost and difficulty to plumb correctly to the enigine. The placement is difficult because of the need to have a short direct path for the passage of air from the unit to the intake.

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Scott Green

09-29-2001 01:15:24




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 Re: Oliver buffs: Is a Super 99 GM diesel supercharged?? in reply to Steven, 09-28-2001 20:21:31  
No , it is not supercharged. What you are looking at is standard factory blower that GM puts on there 2-cycle deisel. With out the blower , the engine wouldn't run. It does the same thing as a turbo charger(pushes air to the engine). But it is not supercharged. I have seen a turbo charger added to the GM deisel. The one I had seen was added to the opposite side the blower is on.



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DrCyKosis

09-30-2001 13:17:43




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 Re: Re: Oliver buffs: Is a Super 99 GM diesel supercharged?? in reply to Scott Green, 09-29-2001 01:15:24  
If it does the same thing as a turbo, and a turbo is a supercharger, then wouldn't it add up that it IS supercharged?

By the way the Detroits were available from the factory with turbos for higher output applications.

The largest Detriot I've been around was 16V92T. That designation breaks down to 16 cylinder, V configuation, 92 cubic inches per cylinder and turbocharged. This one was basically two 8V92's cast into one block. The engine had two roots blowers and four turbos to on it and was driving a really large generator.

I've also worked on EMD's that are also built by GM, almost identical in design to the Detroit, but are gigantic in size. Largest I've seen was twenty cylinders, 715 cubic inches per cylinder for a total of 14,300 CID and about 6000 hp.

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john2510-3020

09-30-2001 07:59:54




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 Re: Re: Oliver buffs: Is a Super 99 GM diesel supercharged?? in reply to Scott Green, 09-29-2001 01:15:24  
the tractor would run without the blower but would not have the hp it had from the factory. the blower is the samething as a supercharger. i like em but they sure are loud! john



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DrCyKosis

09-30-2001 13:00:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Oliver buffs: Is a Super 99 GM diesel supercharged?? in reply to john2510-3020, 09-30-2001 07:59:54  
Wrongo!

The Detroit has no way to move air to the cylinders nor to push the exhaust from the cylinders without the supercharger.

The Detroit does not have a sealed crankcase like a conventional 2 stroke gas motor which uses the piston movement to precharge the crankcase and push it into the cylinder on the next stoke through a transfer port. The Detroit does however have 4 exhaust valves (some have only 2) and since the blower pushes no fuel, just air. at the lower part of the stroke the exhaust valves are open and the air rushing in through the intake ports in the cylinder push the exhaust out the top. the exhaust valves close when the piston about passes the top of the intake ports and allows compression to begin followed by fuel injection near TDC.

One of the other things unique to the Detroit design is the small end of the rod is rather spindly if it even is there at all. Some of the larger Detroits actually bolt the rod to the bottom of the piston pin. The rod in the detroit is always in compression, except during start up and only needs to be strong enough at the wrist pin to move the pistons to start.

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MikeO

09-30-2001 09:15:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Oliver buffs: Is a Super 99 GM diesel supercharged?? in reply to john2510-3020, 09-30-2001 07:59:54  
Sorry John, The Detroit diesel does not run without the blower. Our Oliver 1950 spun the blower shaft as we were bringing it home one day. The engine just died. Replaced the shaft and it started right up.



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Mike M (WA)

09-29-2001 07:46:36




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 Re: Re: Oliver buffs: Is a Super 99 GM diesel supercharged?? in reply to Scott Green, 09-29-2001 01:15:24  
Maybe there's a difference in terminology, but in hot rod parlance, the formal name for a "blower" is a supercharger. Turbocharger is run off engine exhaust, supercharger (as on all GM 2 stroke diesels) runs off a belt from the crankshaft. Several other companies also made superchargers- Paxton comes to mind.



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Zeus

09-29-2001 09:17:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Oliver buffs: Is a Super 99 GM diesel supercharged?? in reply to Mike M (WA), 09-29-2001 07:46:36  
Mike is correct. A "supercharger" is either gear-driven or belt-driven. A "turbocharger" is driven by the exhaust gases.In the GM 2-cycle engines a blower is provided to force air into the cylinders for expelling the exhaust gases and to supply the cylinders with fresh air for combustion.The cylinder wall contains a row of ports which are above the piston when it is at the bottom of its stroke. These ports admit the air from the blower into the cylinder as soon as the rim of the piston uncovers the ports (this is called scavenging). The unidirectional flow of air toward the exhaust valves produces a scavenging effect, leaving the cylinders full of clean air when the piston again covers the inlet ports. As the piston continues on the upward stroke, the exhaust valves close and the charge of fresh air is subjected to compression. Shortly before the piston reaches its highest position, the required amount of fuel is sprayed into the combustion chamber by the unit fuel injector. The intense heat generated during the high compression of the air ignites the fine fuel spray immediately. The combustion continues until the fuel injected has been burned. The resulting pressure forces the piston downward on its power stroke. The exhaust valves are again opened when the piston is about halfway down, allowing the burned gases to escape into the exhaust manifold. Shortly thereafter the downward-moving piston uncovers the inlet ports and the cylinder is again swept with clean scavenging air. This entire combustion cycle is completed in each cylinder for each revolution of the crankshaft, or, in other words, in two strokes; hence, it is a "two-stroke cycle." The blower has two hollow 3-lobe rotors and is gear-driven.

Hope this information is helpful.

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Steven

09-29-2001 16:01:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver buffs: Is a Super 99 GM diesel supercharged?? in reply to Zeus, 09-29-2001 09:17:53  
Thank you for the replies. I knew it was supercharged, I was sure I knew what a supercharger looked like. However; I did not know that it was a 2 stroke. Thank you for all the helpful information!!!



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